[crs1026]

I have a bit of a problem expecting the police to proactively disseminate detailed incident information, if for no other reason than cost and staffing. The concept of "in a more helpful way" implies data management and manipulation, which is beyond mere releasing. Toronto Police does have a 'public safety data portal' full of all sorts of raw data.

I agree, it’s not really their job - more something I would expect from the City staff or Ministry. And highly paid, trained police resources are better used for other things.

The police do try to promote road safety (as they see the concept) through publicity campaigns etc - but not necessarily by being informed through the data they have access to, or by conveying that data in their pitch. (They communicate radar camera data well, but accident data not so much. Catching stunt drivers and insecured loads makes for good tweets, but how big a percentage of pedestrian deaths do these speak to?) It’s well intentioned, but it might attract less backlash if there were evidence that their communication strategies are targeted to key priorities?

Realistically, what would the general public do with a flood of detailed incident information? Sometimes, information such as forensic scene and vehicle data takes weeks or months to analyze; the raw data would be meaningless.

Why, they would use the data to argue out various positions and viewpoints on UT, of course ;-) Seriously, I think Vision Zero could be advanced faster and more effectively (meaning fewer deaths and serious injuries sooner) if we stuck to data and worked less from the narratives and POV’s of those with special interests or yearnings eg for European style built form and roads (which aren’t as consistently idyllic as some claim). It would be good to have a more common understanding of what we are trying to solve.

I wonder for instance if Traffic counts that say, x % of vehicles using Parkside Drive travel at y km/hr might be more helpful data and catch more public attention than ticket counts that say z motorists were charged with speeding on Parkside last year.

- Paul

 

[tiffer24]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473770579060789253

 

[W. K. Lis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1473770579060789253

Happens when the horseless carriages took over the roads from people, kids, and horses. Streets have to plowed and salted for the "better" use for the automobile.

Sleighing at Queen's Park in 1906.
From link.

 

[afransen]

Why, they would use the data to argue out various positions and viewpoints on UT, of course ;-) Seriously, I think Vision Zero could be advanced faster and more effectively (meaning fewer deaths and serious injuries sooner) if we stuck to data and worked less from the narratives and POV’s of those with special interests or yearnings eg for European style built form and roads (which aren’t as consistently idyllic as some claim). It would be good to have a more common understanding of what we are trying to solve.

Stats are easy to ignore. One dead child on a beach gripped Canada's attention during the 2015 election. Frankly, we need to stop the slaughter on the streets.

I think maybe we need to show uncensored images of the aftermath of cyclists getting sucked under a concrete truck.

 

[tiffer24]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1474198046066069506

 

[daniel_kryz]

Seriously, I think Vision Zero could be advanced faster and more effectively (meaning fewer deaths and serious injuries sooner) if we stuck to data and worked less from the narratives and POV’s of those with special interests or yearnings eg for European style built form and roads (which aren’t as consistently idyllic as some claim).

These two priorities are not mutually exclusive.

 

[crs1026]

These two priorities are not mutually exclusive.

No, but the urgency of reducing road deaths on our existing streets should not hijack the debate over the future built form for our communities.

Fix the road behaviour today, as a matter of urgency, and let's consider urban form more fully, with an emphasis on maintaining and optimizing mobility rather than cutting it back driven by safety issues.

- Paul

 

[allengeorge]

Fix the road behaviour today, as a matter of urgency, and let's consider urban form more fully,

My anecdotal observation is that expecting to “fix behavior” through education and enforcement (which is often transitory) is a fools errand - and that ask is actually hijacking more productive, long-term fixes.

Fixing behavior today without built-form changes requires ongoing investment, societal buy-in and changes to the operational tactics of TPS - an organization that is incredibly resistant to change. Because of this ongoing investment, it’s easy to regress (for example, TPS disbands its traffic enforcement unit for ‘reasons’).

Hard infrastructure can more effectively force changes over the long-run at a lower ongoing cost. And, depending on the type of hard infrastructure you build, you can completely design out bad behavior. Finally, its’s also there every single day - unlike a traffic enforcement unit.

 

[crs1026]

My anecdotal observation is that expecting to “fix behavior” through education and enforcement (which is often transitory) is a fools errand - and that ask is actually hijacking more productive, long-term fixes.

Fixing behavior today without built-form changes requires ongoing investment, societal buy-in and changes to the operational tactics of TPS - an organization that is incredibly resistant to change. Because of this ongoing investment, it’s easy to regress (for example, TPS disbands its traffic enforcement unit for ‘reasons’).

Hard infrastructure can more effectively force changes over the long-run at a lower ongoing cost. And, depending on the type of hard infrastructure you build, you can completely design out bad behavior. Finally, its’s also there every single day - unlike a traffic enforcement unit.

Changing the roads to reduce error prone situations is absolutely essential, yes - and it's the "hard" solution. My point is, this does not have to imply car-free built forms, or even car-free lifestyles. It's needed even where the current built form and the traffic volume is going to be around for a long time.

I agree that TPS is not at all aligned to the role we need played to enforce and to educate. That's not a criticism of individual officers (although they do work within a culture that needs change, and it rubs off on the individual officers). The structure of policing needs change from the top.

I worked in industrial regimes where the response to an accident or even a near miss was a kneejerk "just fire the guy". Needless to say, doing that didn't improve safety rates. A lot of the rhetoric about road safety is similar... just blame/punish the driver. That won't work either.

(One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the complacency on our roads about "near misses". In regulated industries such as airlines, railways, even power plants, a "near miss" is treated much the same as a fatality.... because only pure luck stood between the individual and death. On the roads, near misses happen every hour - and a miss is as good as a mile. A few toots of the horn, maybe somebody flashes a rude hand gesture, and people go on their way. There are lots of sloppy industries, but in the good ones, the people who are involved in a near miss spend a lot of time out, sitting and thinking about what just happened. So I would not dismiss education and acountability, even if it's harder to achieve or sustain).

- Paul

 

[evandyk]

Fix the road behaviour today, as a matter of urgency, and let's consider urban form more fully, with an emphasis on maintaining and optimizing mobility rather than cutting it back driven by safety issues.

But the emphasis by 100X should be safety, and then you can focus on maintaining and optimizing mobility.

I do some work in industrial health and safety as well (or at least used to), and you would never say that you should emphasize and optimize efficiency rather than cut those back driven by safety issues. You followed up with a very nice post about how safety issues predominate in workplaces but not the streets.

 

[tiffer24]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1474484185645690888

 

[crs1026]

But the emphasis by 100X should be safety, and then you can focus on maintaining and optimizing mobility.

I do some work in industrial health and safety as well (or at least used to), and you would never say that you should emphasize and optimize efficiency rather than cut those back driven by safety issues. You followed up with a very nice post about how safety issues predominate in workplaces but not the streets.

A fair point…. I was not meaning to suggest that we set a mobility level and sacrifice safety to get there.

However, if we assume that our road network will be retained, and will remain full of cars, and if we don’t achieve greater safety, I suppose that is in fact what we are doing.

- Paul

 

[tiffer24]

A man is in police custody after he allegedly rammed several parked cars, fired off a gun and grappled with officers attempting to apprehend him in a Toronto parking garage on Saturday morning.

Police said they were called to the area of Hilton and St. Clair avenues, east of Bathurst Street, at 7:52 a.m. for reports of a motorist colliding with other vehicles. The driver fled the scene of the collisions and police later met up with him in an underground parking garage. Police allege the driver drew a firearm and fired several shots.

Officers later attempted to arrest the man and several of them suffered minor injuries in a struggle to detain him.

A gun was allegedly found at the scene.

https://www.cp24.com/news/driver-ra...s-and-grappled-with-officers-police-1.5719662

 

[W. K. Lis]

A man is in police custody after he allegedly rammed several parked cars, fired off a gun and grappled with officers attempting to apprehend him in a Toronto parking garage on Saturday morning.

Police said they were called to the area of Hilton and St. Clair avenues, east of Bathurst Street, at 7:52 a.m. for reports of a motorist colliding with other vehicles. The driver fled the scene of the collisions and police later met up with him in an underground parking garage. Police allege the driver drew a firearm and fired several shots.

Officers later attempted to arrest the man and several of them suffered minor injuries in a struggle to detain him.

A gun was allegedly found at the scene.

https://www.cp24.com/news/driver-ra...s-and-grappled-with-officers-police-1.5719662

Not even Krampus will do him good.

 

[tiffer24]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1475181844555517956