[vic]

Just got a Campaign Research poll call. Paraphrasing of questions:

Q1: Prefer to maintain, remove / replace with road, or hybrid.

Q2: If you were told that remove option will lead to closing of Lakeshore and Gardiner for 5 years during construction leading to traffic chaos on other/residential streets, end of world, etc., does it change your opinion? (Very much, somewhat, or not at all)

Q3: What should be the goal of whatever is chosen? Reduce traffic, save on cost, or make a better waterfront?

Q4: Age

Q5: Gender

It felt like a bit of a push poll because of the way it played up the hybrid option in Q1, and made removal sound like utter hell during construction in Q2.

 

[nfitz]

As it can be clearly seen, most of the greens are from the core, where the chances of them using the Gardiner is lower vs the reds
who are from the suburbs and would more likely use 401/DVP/427 and then the Gardiner to get downtown.

That makes no sense. Drivers who live near it are most likely to use it. How do you think we get places? Why would anyone in northern Etobicoke have much use for it?

 

[wopchop]

That makes no sense. Drivers who live near it are most likely to use it. How do you think we get places? Why would anyone in northern Etobicoke have much use for it?

Yeah, doesn't make much sense. South Etobicoke makes sense to me, but not North Etobicoke.

 

[salsa]

Yeah, doesn't make much sense. South Etobicoke makes sense to me, but not North Etobicoke.

North Etobicoke is Ford Nation, that's why.

 

[11th]

Matt Elliot has a vote projection for next week's council vote. So far the results are:

18 - hybrid
10 - boulevard
17 - unknown

However Sarah Doucette (previously unknown) has just declared her support for the boulevard, so the current tally should now be 18-11-16. However the hybrid supporters only need another five votes to win, assuming none of the projected hybrid votes turn out to me incorrect.

Here's the list of councillors: http://t.co/7CZs8x1Lyf

Vote map:

green = boulevard, red = hybrid, orange = unknown

Given the removal option would indirectly divert more traffic to 427 (QEW to 401) and 401 (from 427 to 404/DVP), any councillors whose wards touch those routes would vote for hybrid; exception now being ward 33.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

North Etobicoke is Ford Nation, that's why.

Indeed - it's a values thing, not a "it affects me directly" issue necessarily.

AoD

 

[salsa]

Given the removal option would indirectly divert more traffic to 427 (QEW to 401) and 401 (from 427 to 404/DVP), any councillors whose wards touch those routes would vote for hybrid; exception now being ward 33.

Right. The removal option will cost drivers 2 - 3 minutes, so now they will waste half an hour taking a more convoluted and congested route instead. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Matt Elliot has a vote projection for next week's council vote. So far the results are:

18 - hybrid
10 - boulevard
17 - unknown

However Sarah Doucette (previously unknown) has just declared her support for the boulevard, so the current tally should now be 18-11-16. However the hybrid supporters only need another five votes to win, assuming none of the projected hybrid votes turn out to me incorrect.

Here's the list of councillors: http://t.co/7CZs8x1Lyf

Vote map:
View attachment 47050
green = boulevard, red = hybrid, orange = unknown

That is very depressing. I expected as much as soon as the Mayor threw his support behind keeping the elevated expressway, but it's still depressing.

 

[aquateam]

Right. The removal option will cost drivers 2 - 3 minutes, so now they will waste half an hour taking a more convoluted and congested route instead. Makes perfect sense.

View attachment 47092

Drop point B at High Park north and you'll see my situation. Heading west from A (or whenever I'm in the East end) I'll take the DVP-Gardiner combination if traffic is free-flowing, otherwise I'll take the 401 and head south at black creek.

Someone heading from the North-East to say, southern Etobicoke, Missisauga, Oakville, etc would be in the same situation.

 

[11th]

Right. The removal option will cost drivers 2 - 3 minutes, so now they will waste half an hour taking a more convoluted and congested route instead. Makes perfect sense.

Your point A to B example should always be via DVP (and should more likely use the TTC or GO instead of driving) - is probably the least effected by a "removal" option.

I think aquateam has identified a better scenario than yours..

Drop point B at High Park north and you'll see my situation. Heading west from A (or whenever I'm in the East end) I'll take the DVP-Gardiner combination if traffic is free-flowing, otherwise I'll take the 401 and head south at black creek.

Someone heading from the North-East to say, southern Etobicoke, Missisauga, Oakville, etc would be in the same situation.

 

[salsa]

Your point A to B example should always be via DVP (and should more likely use the TTC or GO instead of driving) - is probably the least effected by a "removal" option.

I think aquateam has identified a better scenario than yours..

Drop point B at High Park north and you'll see my situation. Heading west from A (or whenever I'm in the East end) I'll take the DVP-Gardiner combination if traffic is free-flowing, otherwise I'll take the 401 and head south at black creek.

Only 21% of Gardiner East drivers are not headed downtown. A small number of them who decide to take the 401 instead are not gonna cause a tangible impact on traffic.

Someone heading from the North-East to say, southern Etobicoke, Missisauga, Oakville, etc would be in the same situation.

Actually, not only does google maps recommends the 401 -> 427 -> QEW route for all those examples you came up with, but it's actually faster too. Even today you would have to be dumb to use the DVP and Gardiner for those trips given the insane traffic.

 

[aquateam]

Actually, not only does google maps recommends the 401 -> 427 -> QEW route for all those examples you came up with, but it's actually faster too. Even today you would have to be dumb to use the DVP and Gardiner for those trips given the insane traffic.

Thanks for the snide insult. I take the DVP-Gardiner combo when I know there won't be a bottleneck on the DVP(weekends, night time) because I can avoid all the traffic lights from coming through the north end of the city, and because the view from the Gardiner is stunning. Incidentally, when I plug high park north into google maps it recommends the gardiner combo. For the etobicoke/missisauga destinations I get the 401->427->QEW recommendation, but day-to-day conditions could make the DVP route faster (like if there's a problem on the 401).

The point is that it's a bit disingenous of you to say that it's impossible that reducing access to one east-west artery won't impact traffic on the other one, just because of a cherry-picked Origin-Destination pair.

And I voted for Remove, btw.

 

[CDL.TO]

So shifting those through-drivers to other routes or options would (theoretically) reduce congestion on the DVP.

As many more people commute on the DVP but get off the highway before the Gardiner than continue through to use the Gardiner East, could getting rid of the Gardiner East actually reduce aggregate commuting travel times for people headed in the direction of the core?

Are we looking at a real-world example of Braess's Paradox?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braess's_paradox

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

I take the DVP-Gardiner combo when I know there won't be a bottleneck on the DVP(weekends, night time) because I can avoid all the traffic lights from coming through the north end of the city, and because the view from the Gardiner is stunning. Incidentally, when I plug high park north into google maps it recommends the gardiner combo. For the etobicoke/missisauga destinations I get the 401->427->QEW recommendation, but day-to-day conditions could make the DVP route faster (like if there's a problem on the 401).

The point is that it's a bit disingenous of you to say that it's impossible that reducing access to one east-west artery won't impact traffic on the other one, just because of a cherry-picked Origin-Destination pair.

And I voted for Remove, btw.

Honest question, aquateam: what takes you from Finch & Don Mills to Bloor & Keele on a daily basis?

 

[muller877]

Right. The removal option will cost drivers 2 - 3 minutes, so now they will waste half an hour taking a more convoluted and congested route instead. Makes perfect sense.

View attachment 47092

I just ran Google Maps from Fairview Mall to the surface parking lot across from the ACC (where the Bus terminal is going to be located).

Via DVP - 20 min
Via Lakeshore - 23 min (can get this result if you add a intermediate stop on Lakeshore near Cherry St)
Via Richmond - 25 min

So 3 min slower at 2pm in the afternoon. If I'm not in a meeting I'll run the same test around 5 (or if someone else could do it please go ahead). I still say the city is way off when they say 2-3 minutes additional time. (right now you can get across on Lakeshore pretty quickly so I think it's a good test)

And this is without the additional traffic due to the tear-down and without all the condo's and offices that are planning to be built in the east.