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Keep the personal attack (particularly on grammar and spelling) in check please.

As to the matter of citizen participation - if not for that, you'd have a good chunk of the Annex leveled for Spadina Expressway, counting on the small mercies that is the Metro government at the time. And Fort York was saved from the builldozer from interested citizens as well.

AoD
 
is it possible to build an atgrade expressway along the route of the proposed boulevard? This would free up land for development, and it could be retrofitted into a boulevard later.

No. Its not possible. The problem is all the cross streets would need to bridge over it, which would be just as expensive as the current design (which bridges the expressway over the cross streets); it would make accessing the waterfront from downtown even harder for pedestrians, which defeats the purpose of changing the design; and lastly, because of the elevation of the railway line (which isn't going anywhere) it is physically impossible to get the cross street bridges up and over the expressway within the space available.

You have to raise the expressway, sink the expressway or get rid of the expressway.
 
How about having express through-traffic lanes that sink over the cross streets and raise to join the rest of the Gardiner after Jarvis (and later on, Dufferin)?
 
How about having express through-traffic lanes that sink over the cross streets and raise to join the rest of the Gardiner after Jarvis (and later on, Dufferin)?

I think you mean 'sink under', correct?

How about a surface roadway with well-timed lights at intersections to allow uninterrupted east-west flow, left- and right-turn lanes at each intersection, a median to allow slow pedestrians a place to pause between lights, and 4 lanes in each direction? You know, like a boulevard...
 
I think you mean 'sink under', correct?

How about a surface roadway with well-timed lights at intersections to allow uninterrupted east-west flow, left- and right-turn lanes at each intersection, a median to allow slow pedestrians a place to pause between lights, and 4 lanes in each direction? You know, like a boulevard...
Yup, my bad.

And yes, that sounds great as well!

I really don't see how a boulevard will be so much worse than an expressway. The main concern I see brought up again and again are how it is bad for through traffic going from DVP to Etobicoke/Mississauga.

For one, I am not sure why we even want those kind of commuters to be driving through downtown, or why we should subsidize their trip with an elevated expressway at the cost of the environment, health and livability and the opportunity cost of development. Second, how an 8-lane boulevard is insufficient for these trips when the 5-lane stop-light abundant Steeles and Eglinton Avenues regularly accommodate those sort of trips.
 
There, there cplchanb, I know sober second thought makes you really angry. Also spelling and grammar, apparently. But since we do live in a world where Council's moronic plans are subject to the EA process by law, there's still room for citizen input, as well as provincial review.

While I do agree that civilian oversight is a key element, recently there is way too much...every small detail needs to pass through the gauntlet of fire which sometimes takes way too much time and leaves no room for construction tolerances. Not to mention a lot of the citizen input is done by those who have no expertise in construction and city matters. That's where the so called nimbyism comes from.

In terms of this project, both sides are banking on theoretical probabilities. Hybrid detractors argue about eventual maintenence costs that may accrue when our grand children grow up and land value lost for land that has been untouched for generations. Boulevard detractors have argued that the stub means nothing without the entire removal and requires a currently theoretical relief line to make it work.

The point is instead of bickering back and forth based on self interests generated by theoretical probabilities, we need to seriously just make a decision and not look back. While perhaps the argument for removal may have more merit the vote is done and the decision is made. We simply can't afford to.

Oyea apologies for my grammatical ineptitude professor. I typed that up in the confines of my mobile phone while being carpooled through gridlock on the dvp...there's too many cars going downtown because construction of the relief line has been stalled for generations ;)
 
Electrify, that's not a BRT, that's just a bus route. Unless you plan on putting in a dedicated bus lane on Lake Shore, Woodbine, Kingston AND Main, you'll save maybe 1-2mn on a 30 mn ride. Which is just not worth it, unless you're a car driver, in which case you'd spend hundreds of millions of dollars on it.

Okay, it would be more of a "BRT-Lite," but if it followed Viva's model it could not only help to relieve the subway but also use said infrastructure more efficiently.
 
The debate is over and at leats now developers and Waterfront Toronto can develop future plans with certainty and that's a good thing.

I would have preferred a teardown but Toronto can still create a wonderful Waterfront that is far better with the Gardiner than without. Seeing Lakeshore will be redone, the entire area under the Gardiner is a clean slate. They can make it a pedestrian wonderland as long as they don't allow any bikes which guarantees little pedestrian life.

Cover the enire underside with beautiful wood panelling, old style lamp fixtures, cafes, restaurants, food stalls, clothing stores.......make the Gardiner a "go to" place. A combo Yonge/Queen/Kensington Market. The area where people in the Waterfront/Portlands go to do their shopping, entertainment, get a drink, grab a bite to eat, watch street performers, buy their fresh produce or meet friends for a coffee. The entire stretch from Yonge to the DVP could prove to the world tha elevated urban expressways can be a city's best friend.

An area where after walking down Yonge and taking in all the weird sights and sounds people don't stop at Union but keep going and "do the Gardiner". The Gardiner could become Toronto's urban oasis that unlike any other offers a 4 season. Toronto is a winter city and the Gardiner could be the place everyone wants to see and be seen even when it's raining or snowing.

It's true that this was a decision for 100 years and it could turn out to be one of the best the city every made. If Toronto gets this right, in 20 years to 100 years from now people will be looking back and commending Tory and the current councillors for having the wisdom to keep the elvated highway and people will say "thank god they didn't tear down the Gardiner".


I didn't want to rewrite but I thought the point was worth making again.

Even the Gardiner's biggest supporters openly acknowledge that the thing is an eyesore. Those that voted with Tory did so because they think the Gardiner is simply too important a roadway to tear down but everyone on them knows that it is a blight on the Waterfront. Tying a hybrid Gardiner to a massive makeover underneath it should be the next task and I think the support would be nearly universal because everyone knows it a blight on the urban landscape.

Toronto is a winter city and if done right a urbane Gardiner could be a winter respite where everyone goes. A Kensington/Queen/Yorkville avenue with a roof. Toronto really could make this the envy of every city in the world and the place where urban planners go to understand that urban freeways can be as much a benefit as a liability. Toronto could change the world view of elevated freeways being no-go zones to incredible opportunities of urban renewal, creativity, and beauty. Toronto could make the cities that have already torn down their urban freeways regret their decisions.

You have lemons, you make lemonade and the Gardiner is the place to show the world that keeping the elevated structure in tact was the best decision the city ever made. If Toronto totally embraces the concept then urban planners will reflect on how Toronto became such a great city by using two examples.........they didn't build the Spadina Expressway and they didn't pull down the Gardiner.
 
Predicating the removal of that stretch on the presence or absence of DRL is kind of odd - I am unconvinced that we are talking about a group of commuters who will suddenly switch mode. If anything, I suspect increased GO frequency will have far more impact to that group.
Fair enough. Hopefully that can get done too, and have significant impact on vehicular traffic.

Am I the only one that thinks the Gardiner East is a beautiful sculpture? I found it funny every article running down the G.E featured a photo showing off the sheer beauty of the beast.
Maybe not the only one, but I would agree that even most of the supporters don't think it's a beautiful structure. Living in Scarborough I leaned slightly on the hybrid side, but I don't think the Gardiner is beautiful. However, I do think that Toronto in the past has failed in making the space underneath and beside it nice, and hope that this will improve with the new plan.

It doesn't have to be as barren as it currently is. That said, having rainwater falling from it doesn't help.
 
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Am I the only one that thinks the Gardiner East is a beautiful sculpture? I found it funny every article running down the G.E featured a photo showing off the sheer beauty of the beast.

I've grown to appreciate it and its urban-ness. Obviously there are issues with the layout of the road and ped-crossings below it, as well as aesthetic issues, but the structure itself is decent. I was down by the eastern stretch on the bike last evening, and yeah it can be pleasant. Between Logan and Leslie Lake Shore is like a loud suburban highway. But between Don Rdwy and Logan things quiet down and you begin to appreciate the grade-separation. I'm looking forward to seeing the plans of how they want to improve the area down under the Gardiner overpass.
 
Not all of you agree with Matt Elliot's opinions, but he has a good point.

Three lingering Gardiner questions that deserve answers

1. Where did the new “hybrid option” come from?

Semantics played a huge role in the Gardiner debate. That the winning option was called the “hybrid” gave it immediate political appeal. Politicians — especially Toronto politicians — tend to love the idea of compromise.

But anyone who looked deeper at the Gardiner debate realized pretty quickly that the “hybrid option” isn’t really a hybrid at all. It merely moves the location of a few off-ramps while leaving the rest of the expressway intact. It’s a far cry from the “hybrid” proposed by First Gulf in 2014 which would have seen the Gardiner East demolished and rebuilt on an entirely different alignment.

We know from the reports that First Gulf’s hybrid was ruled out due to concerns about the curve radius of the realigned expressway connection and the location of a water treatment facility. That makes sense. But it’s not clear to me why the report process continued after that realization. Who came up with the new hybrid? And why keep calling it the “hybrid” when it so clearly differed from the first proposal?

2. Why was removal not the preferred alternative in the Environmental Assessment?
I’ll have more to say on this in the future, but it really bothers me that the Gardiner East report came to Toronto City Council without a staff recommendation. Instead, both removing and keeping the Gardiner East (as the “hybrid”) were presented to council as viable solutions. At a glance, it essentially gave them equal weight.

But if we dig deeper into the report, it’s clear that both options were not equally preferred. When weighed against the criteria approved by council when they started the environmental assessment process, the remove option scored better in the vast majority of cases.

The Gardiner EA looked at the options through four lenses: transportation and infrastructure, urban design, environment and economics. In all but the first case, the EA determined that removing the Gardiner East was the preferred option.

The EA also weighed the options against five goals: waterfront revitalization, reconnecting the city with the lake, balancing modes of travel, achieving sustainability and creating value. In achieving every one of those goals, removing the Gardiner East was found to be the preferred option.

Add the results up and taking down the Gardiner East comes out ahead 8-1. Not even close.

So why no recommendation? A year ago — before the introduction of the “hybrid” — the same report writers had no trouble recommending removal as their preferred option. Why the ambiguity now?

3. What the hell did council vote for?
I’m pretty sure no one can answer this question yet, but it’s still worth thinking about. With the vote projected to be so close last week, Tory compromised a bit on his preferred option, allowing some amendments to ensure the support of wildcard colleagues like Coun. Jim Karygiannis and Coun. Jon Burnside.

Once all those various amendments are factored into the deal, the result is a shambling mess — a FrankenGardiner.

Council opted to endorse the “hybrid option,” yes, but their hybrid specifically includes no specifics as to the configuration and number of ramps at Cherry Street. It also comes with a request that staff look at design alternatives — alternatives that could trigger another look at the original design offered by First Gulf.

It also comes with a request for reports on a bunch of stuff.

There were two requests for reports on tolling the highway, to come in September — one for all residents, and one that would toll only non-residents.

Other successful motions asked for reports on whether the Gardiner could be uploaded to the province, or sold to a private company.

And then there was the ridiculous and expensive notion of tunnelling the Gardiner. Councillors decided to study whether it’d be possible to bury the expressway, at — seriously — no cost to the taxpayer. I really hope the report on that one is just the words “NOPE” in 200-point font.

So where does that leave us? According to council, the “hybrid” will have ramps at Cherry Street, or maybe not. It will either be left where it is or realigned entirely. It’ll be owned by the city, or the province, or someone else. It’ll be either tolled or untolled. It could be elevated, or it could somehow be buried deep in the cold dark earth at no cost to the taxpayer.

The only certain thing certain is uncertainty.

http://metronews.ca/voices/torys-to...ring-gardiner-questions-that-deserve-answers/

About #2, the teardown was previously recommended even with the projected 10 minute delay at that time. Recently they managed to bring that down to 3 minutes and yet there was no recommendation. I'm puzzled.
 
Not all of you agree with Matt Elliot's opinions, but he has a good point.



http://metronews.ca/voices/torys-to...ring-gardiner-questions-that-deserve-answers/

About #2, the teardown was previously recommended even with the projected 10 minute delay at that time. Recently they managed to bring that down to 3 minutes and yet there was no recommendation. I'm puzzled.

So staff say this portion is so lightly used that it can be removed, but then the original hybrid option cannot have a sharp curve because is will reduce traffic capacity due to slowing drivers.
 

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