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I'm not sure some of these ideas make sense on a civic level, though they certainly seem to have a benefit on a social level (well, for some). Making it harder and harder for people to get around this enormous city is not going to reap any sort of economic rewards. Often we're talking about purposely obfuscating people's commuting choices so that they HAVE to take public transit - even if it's a poor substitute. That's not urban planning, that's just social conditioning.


I agree, it seems to be the MO of transit decision making. Projects must impinge on automobile use in order for them to get consideration. That is the main reason I think the DRL will not go anywhere, it doesn't screw up traffic enough.

It should also be noted that according to the Cordon Count vehicular traffic into the core is down by 11% (over a 5 year period IIRC). That begs the question, should the city being encouraging even fewer people to come into town?
 
I agree, it seems to be the MO of transit decision making. Projects must impinge on automobile use in order for them to get consideration. That is the main reason I think the DRL will not go anywhere, it doesn't screw up traffic enough.

It should also be noted that according to the Cordon Count vehicular traffic into the core is down by 11% (over a 5 year period IIRC). That begs the question, should the city being encouraging even fewer people to come into town?

Yes, but transit ridership in the same period of time also went up dramatically. It's misleading to suggest that a drop of 11% in vehicular traffic downtown (if that is indeed the case) means a drop of 11% of people coming downtown. I don't know if this is what you were referring to, but if I'm reading it right the 11% decrease in vehicular traffic to Central Toronto was only for the morning peak period, and this is in a period of fifteen, not five, years (1991-2006). Simultaneously, they note that the amount of people using GO to get downton has skyrocketted.
 
Yes, but transit ridership in the same period of time also went up dramatically. It's misleading to suggest that a drop of 11% in vehicular traffic downtown (if that is indeed the case) means a drop of 11% of people coming downtown. I don't know if this is what you were referring to, but if I'm reading it right the 11% decrease in vehicular traffic to Central Toronto was only for the morning peak period, and this is in a period of fifteen, not five, years (1991-2006). Simultaneously, they note that the amount of people using GO to get downton has skyrocketted.

Which only proves the point that if you give people viable alternatives and options to personal car use, they'll take them - without you needing to resort to punitive measures.
 
Yes, but transit ridership in the same period of time also went up dramatically. It's misleading to suggest that a drop of 11% in vehicular traffic downtown (if that is indeed the case) means a drop of 11% of people coming downtown. I don't know if this is what you were referring to, but if I'm reading it right the 11% decrease in vehicular traffic to Central Toronto was only for the morning peak period, and this is in a period of fifteen, not five, years (1991-2006). Simultaneously, they note that the amount of people using GO to get downton has skyrocketted.

Yep, that is the report. Keep in mind though that the increase in transit ridership comes after a dramatic fall. Twenty years ago Toronto's core had the same number of transit riders and 11% more vehicular traffic. Maybe even more people were entering the core twenty years ago because the report also notes an increase in single occupancy vehicles.
 
Yep, that is the report. Keep in mind though that the increase in transit ridership comes after a dramatic fall. Twenty years ago Toronto's core had the same number of transit riders and 11% more vehicular traffic. Maybe even more people were entering the core twenty years ago because the report also notes an increase in single occupancy vehicles.

It's true that TTC ridership levels are only now back to where they were twenty years ago, but as lesouris just pointed out GO ridership has gone through the roof since then.
More than enough to make up for an 11% decrease in car traffic? Depends how many people where in each car, I suppose.
At any rate, to say from these numbers that more people were entering the core twenty years ago is a bit disingenuous. Less are coming in by car, and more are coming in by train which is fine by me.
 
Yep, that is the report. Keep in mind though that the increase in transit ridership comes after a dramatic fall. Twenty years ago Toronto's core had the same number of transit riders and 11% more vehicular traffic. Maybe even more people were entering the core twenty years ago because the report also notes an increase in single occupancy vehicles.

From the report:

The number of person trips by the transit modes (GO Rail, GO Bus and Other Transit) has increased by approximately 14% (49,600) from 1991 to 2006

Keep in mind that due to the condo boom over the past few years, downtown's population has grown dramatically. Between 1991 and 2006, the downtown core grew by just under 40,000 people (source). Even if they drive, they do not have to cross into the core and therefore they wouldn't be counted in the study (if I understand it correctly), nor would they be counted if they take transit to other places downtown. Since these people live downtown, it is probably safe to say that outside of office hours there are more people downtown than 15 years ago.

Remember, that 11% decrease was only for the morning peak period. The amount of people crossing into downtown in cars only decreased by 6% or 106,816. At the same time there were 23,773 more people getting downtown using the GO train, while Other transit crossings dropped off by 4,913. All together, there was only about 5% less people crossing into downtown. If we factor in the 40,000 more people who have moved downtown and no longer have to make that crossing, it is even lower than that. Yes, there are less people coming downtown, but it's not the 11% you made it out to be.

There are many reasons for this, not only that the lack of highways has made it less attractive. The loss of manufacturing jobs in the core may be one reason. More people working from home may be another. Other possibilites include the price of office space/real estate downtown or higher business taxes in Toronto compared to the 905.

One of my big problems with this study is that they only collected data on Mondays-Thursdays in May and June. This means we have no idea if there has been an increase or decrease in weekend trips downtown. And, since the post-secondary school year ends in April (with generally fewer people taking summer courses), we're missing a lot of the student traffic you get September-April. While this study is illuminating, I don't think we can say definitively that over the course of a full year fewer people are downtown (and even then, how many hours they spend downtown - how many people at any given time).
 
lesoris,

Yes I agree that it is hard to get any definitive numbers but the confounding factors work both way. Many of those whom moved downtown may, and looking first hand at the increased reverse commute, do , work outside of the core and even the city itself. Toronto's employment stats have been stagnant over the period. There is also the effects of off hour commutes being the result of the increasing population of the 905. Many 905'ers must come into the city for services like hospitals, courts, school, etc. Just by the very nature of GTA population growth, traffic into downtown should have increased (calculated as a percentage of GTA residents). I know half of UHN patients come form the 905.

The point still stands, vehicular traffic in the core is generally less than before.
 
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when was that report done?

I am wondering because if GO Transit numbers were up 14% then, they are likely much higher as GO has exploded in growth lately.
 
when was that report done?

I am wondering because if GO Transit numbers were up 14% then, they are likely much higher as GO has exploded in growth lately.

The reporting period was 2001-2006. The report itself was released in May 2008.

With regards to the number of commutes into the central area, here is a quote from the summary....

The Central Area Cordon has actually recorded a slight decrease in vehicular trips in the peak direction (inbound), which is testament to the fact that new employment has been locating outside the traditional downtown, in areas which are relatively more accessible by a high speed road network.
 
Also times have changed, if you wanted to do anything special when it came to the law or anything about your health, you had to go Downtown.

I remember when I was younger you had to go downtown to get a special X-ray or meet some special doctor.

However a lot of the once small suburban hospitals have become much larger and courthouses have opened up across the GTA.

Courthouses are full, you should check out the one in Brampton, its like a circus...
 
York-Bay-Yonge Interchange Reconfiguration

Not sure where to put this, but anyway got a flyer today for an upcoming public meeting Sep 23 on the proposed reconfiguration off the Gardiner ramps in the York St / Bay St area, which replaces the previous scheduled June 24 meeting cancelled by the strike.

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/yby_interchange/pdf/2009-09-23_notice.pdf

http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/yby_interchange/index.htm

Gardiner Expressway
York-Bay-Yonge Interchange Reconfiguration
Municipal Class Environmental Assessment
Notice of Study Commencement & Public Meeting
Public Consultation:
We invite you to attend a Public Meeting and Open House to learn more about the project and provide feedback.
Details are as follows:
Date: Wednesday, September 23, 2009
Time: 6:00 p.m. – 9:00 p.m.; Presentation at 7:30 p.m.
Location: Westin Harbour Castle, 1 Harbour Square, Pier 2 Room
This meeting replaces the original meeting planned for June 24, 2009,
which was postponed due to the summer labour disruption.
Background:
The City of Toronto is beginning a Municipal Class
Environmental Assessment study (Schedule “Bâ€) to determine
the feasibility of reconfiguring the eastbound off-ramp from the
Gardiner Expressway to York, Bay and Yonge Streets, and to
assess the potential implications and benefits of closing the onramp
from Bay Street to the eastbound Gardiner Expressway.
The purpose of any change will be to support and enhance the
pedestrian and park spaces in the immediate area while maintaining
acceptable traffic capacity and operations.​
 
I remain skeptical that this should be done before most of the transit projects slated for the east are completed. As it stands right now, a lot of east-end commuters would be getting screwed. Inadequate transit and essentially the DVP/Gardiner into the core. That highway should go but in due time, once the alternatives are up and running.

I agree....Update our public transit infastructure first.:rolleyes:....i hope today is no indication of what could happen without the Gardiner Expy.
Total traffic chaos this morning/afternoon in every Toronto neighbourhoods.:eek::eek:
 
I agree....Update our public transit infastructure first.:rolleyes:....i hope today is no indication of what could happen without the Gardiner Expy.
Total traffic chaos this morning/afternoon in every Toronto neighbourhoods.:eek::eek:

My issue with the argument that we need to upgrade our public transit infrastructure is that I don't see a point where people will be satisfied that we have done enough. If we wait until every possible Gardiner user (or even 50% of the possible Gardiner users) have an alternative that they are satisfied with the highway will still be up a hundred years from now.

I'm not saying that it's a convenient stall tactic (ok, maybe I am), but we're going to have to take the plunge sooner or later.
 
I'm not saying that it's a convenient stall tactic (ok, maybe I am), but we're going to have to take the plunge sooner or later.
We could at least put in the transit that was promised as an alternative for not building the piece of Gardiner east of Leslie; that we are still waiting for 35 year later.
 
Waking from the Gardiner's urban sleep

Sometimes big changes come in small moves. Consider the arrival of a coffee shop, Second Cup, at 33 Bay St. If that address doesn't conjure up any images, that's because it belongs to a new building south of Lake Shore Blvd. on the east side of the street in the curve of the Gardiner on-ramp.

The view is among the best, though not one most of us have had the pleasure of enjoying. That's because, until now, the site had been dismissed as a wasteland. Cast in permanent shadow, facing onto raised highways, concrete columns and a forest of skyscrapers: this is the urban landscape up close and personal.

It might still be a bit much for many, but don't forget, the Air Canada Centre is just across the corner, the waterfront a few metres to the south, a parking lot to the north and, of course, any number of office towers and highrise condos, each occupied by hundreds of inhabitants.

While the debate on taking down the Gardiner has all but disappeared from consciousness, the elevated expressway is being quietly incorporated into city life. A couple of months ago and much farther west, a bottom section of the Gardiner became the location of a permanent artwork by Kim Tomczak and Lisa Steele. Meanwhile, Yonge beneath the Gardiner has been transformed by a recent city landscaping effort. Though unfinished, the space is alive as never before.

What's unfolding here is the result of a new attitude to the city, and how it should be occupied. Until now, the land beneath the Gardiner was also beneath contempt. But the influx of residents and workers has changed all that. Suddenly, even an orphaned site like the one occupied by Second Cup has value.

The speed of change has led to some dangerous incongruities. For example, Harbour St., which between Bay and Yonge serves as an eastbound exit ramp from the Gardiner, is now the main street for thousands living at the massive Pinnacle condo complex. The pedestrian-hostile lights at Bay and Lake Shore are also no longer appropriate and the on-ramp itself has become a serious hazard for those on foot.

At some point, the city will have to redo it, much as it has the Gardiner exit on Yonge.

"It's been good," says owner/franchisee Heather Lithgow, who opened the café just last month. "Many people don't know we're here yet, but there's a lot of walk-in traffic. And a lot of people tell us, `Oh wow, what a great location.'"

Toronto hasn't reached Tokyo-level densities yet; in that city you can sit and eat a bowl of noodles under an expressway. And although action is unlikely in this car-addicted region, tearing down the Gardiner would have been the preferred option.

But watching as the city colonizes itself from within can be interesting; the ideas that prevailed when the Gardiner was planned and constructed, and which created this landscape in the first place, have since been discredited. Districts long set aside for the infrastructure of industry and transportation are fast being turned into residential neighbourhoods. Every morning dog-walkers can be seen happily wandering the urban darkness of the Gardiner.

The question is whether the city can keep up with itself; as Lithgow's coffee shop makes clear, she and the real estate scouts at Second Cup are well ahead of the urban planners.

Despite the awkwardness of this transitional period, the urbanizing forces now unleashed are remaking Toronto from top to bottom. It's a job that will never be finished, but at least it has started.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/732445--waking-from-the-gardiner-s-urban-sleep
 

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