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traffic chaos. 905ers pissed off. the exodus of jobs away from downtown. toronto's economy collapses. it brings the gta down with it. canada's economy falls apart. the usa invades. god strikes bush down for taking over canada. bin laden rises from the dead and throws a dirty bomb over the fence into the usa. usa gets mad. bombs the hell out of them. bombs go off everywhere. earth blows up. knocks mars out of orbit. sends it careening into the sun. sun blows up. alpha centauri feels the shockwave. the centauri take this as a sign to invade the narn again.

moral of the story is: if you don't want the narn to suffer yet again, keep the gardiner where it is.
 
dashingdan:

Perhaps one should do that just out of ennui. I suspect the Babylon 5 references are too obscure for the forumites, however.

AoD
 
well people got my bsg reference. but b5 is pretty old now, so whatever.

as for the gardiner, i'm sure downtown's visual aesthetics would be improved by it coming down, which is always a good thing.
 
905ers pissed off. the exodus of jobs away from downtown.
That is, unfortunately, the most factual statement i've heard in a long time (other than 1+1=2)... <ignore this part> Toronto's tax rates already encourage jobs in the 905 and companies are already exodusing there (although very little). like i said before, tolling the QEW must be a regional matter in order to keep drivers onto toronto's highways instead of just turning around and using 905 highways, which brings up another point, how 905 roads are wider than 416 roads, which bring up another point, the unfriendliness to peds and bicyclists, which brings up...</ignore this part> On the flip side, I doubt the two missing lanes each way would cause such an exodus.
 
And then Toronto losing all of those corporate jobs to Calgary. The end is coming.

So, if they remove the gardiner, people won't be willing to idle in traffic going downtown (or the extra 5-6 minutes that they say would add each way) vs. idling in traffic throughout the GTA, especially if even more jobs leave for 905.

Plain and simple, the job market in Toronto is healthy. A small decline since 2000, after an upswing in the late 90s. If the commutte gets longer going downtown, people forget about the alternatives if these doomsday scenarios materialize, traffic will increase, everywhere. The only key to removing the gardiner is to have viable alternatives to the car, which, is another issue byitself.
 
which brings up another point, how 905 roads are wider than 416 roads, which bring up another point, the unfriendliness to peds and bicyclists, which brings up...</
I'd agree in most part that 905 roads are unfriendly to pedestrians but most 416 cyclist (well, in Etobicoke at least) I know would rather ride in Sauga because the lanes are wider making it easier for cars to past them instead of idling behind them and getting all bitchy about it. That being said, there are more 18 wheeler trucks on Sauga streets which aren't the best thing to share the road with but meh, life is life.
 
i really believe that taking down the gardiner could work if more go service was brought to lakeshore west and milton. build more parking lots at go stations too. more frequent trains. the new 12-car trains will help in that regard. make the milton trains run beyond 8 o'clock. all that would take pressure off the gardiner. i'm sure a lot of the people who take the lakeshore west and milton lines used to drive down the gardiner to work, i'm sure even more people could be convinced to do the same, especially if tolls were added to the gardiner (which i think is a good idea).
 
^ Pretty much, thats what they would have to do. I think they should also implement their proposal to have smaller trains running on the lakeshore line at near subway frequencies.

Also, as an alternative, which I've had to do because trying to find parking at a GO lot at 10:30am during a weekday is impossible (I checked Clarkson, Port Credit, and Long Branch), is to extend the subway to Sherway, where there is ample parking during the day - I had to take what seemed like a short bus ride to the subway. People can then park there and then take the subway in.
 
From the Post:

Let's embrace the Gardiner
Shanghai loves its urban roadway. Why don't we?
Shanghai celebrates the central expressway that helps relieve traffic congestion, even festooning its underpinnings with decoration.

Kelvin Browne, National Post
Published: Wednesday, November 22, 2006

The problem with the Gardiner Expressway is it's too small and modest. After you've seen Shanghai's splendid, gargantuan elevated roadway, it's obviously a mistake to tear down the Gardiner. Instead, we should take our cue from Shanghai and celebrate it as a unique architectural feature that performs an extraordinarily useful public service -- and tart it up.

The Gardiner got off to a bad start, compared with Shanghai's elevated road system. When it was built, the Gardiner stood out, exposed to ridicule between the city and the lake. It was called a barrier. It became a surrogate for our lack of vision, an excuse for why the lakefront wasn't developed that let us off the hook for our planning ineptitude.

Since there weren't many buildings on or near the waterfront then, its pathetic few storeys were blamed for blocking views of the lake. Years later, when lakeside condos began to proliferate, it was obvious the Gardiner wasn't the villain we thought. The more that gets built on the Toronto waterfront, the more innocuous the Gardiner becomes and the less imperative its destruction.

Conversely, the Shanghai expressway was built in the midst of an existing, dense urban area with many tall buildings. It's higher and bigger than the Gardiner but, surprisingly, doesn't seem incongruous in the context of Shanghai. It's been buried in urbanity from the moment it was constructed. Needless to say, it's convenient to build an expressway in Communist China as you don't worry about ratepayers' groups or public meetings. That said, the expressway was popular from the day it opened because it relieved serious traffic problems.

We've always had the benefit of the Gardiner, and have little sense of how impossible traffic would be if we didn't. We take it for granted while belittling it and letting it molder. Conversely, Shanghai sees its expressway as a saviour and lavishes attention on it.

There are those who believe the Gardiner, and its cousin in Shanghai, make traffic worse because they encourage people to own cars. The logic is that fewer roads mean worse traffic and hence more people will be convinced to use transit.

Not an unreasonable proposition. The issue in Toronto is we have the "stick" part of the equation -- increasingly awful traffic -- but haven't produced the "carrot," -- public transit that's convenient, especially for those who live outside the downtown. In other words, if you want to tear down the Gardiner to coerce people to use transit (or perhaps the NDP alternative, bikes) make transit viable first.

Shanghai, incidentally, is spending a bundle on public transit, but doesn't see this as a substitute for roads that work.

Since we've been embarrassed by the Gardiner from its inception, we've let it become shabby, not to mention having difficulty upgrading it by adding new ramps to utilize it effectively. Shanghai loves its elevated expressway and has made it part of its remarkable, if somewhat over-the-top, city experience. The roadway is lit with miles of neon and driving along it at night is like cruising the strip in Las Vegas. There are planters overflowing with greenery along the road's sides. The pylons holding it up are covered in climbing vines and art installations. (They're also garishly illuminated!) The Shanghai expressway is an iconic civic feature. I love it.

We can learn from Shanghai. First, maximize the Gardiner's presence and make it into a vibrant, colourful part of the downtown. Let's admit it serves a useful purpose. But let's move beyond tolerance and make it an enjoyable experience, more like the one in Shanghai. It's time to stop spouting pathetic, victim-like excuses that it's wrecking neighbourhoods and so on. Its an opportunity to create a unique downtown feature in an otherwise mostly characterless part of town. Its also a lot cheaper to learn to love it and leave it standing.

Second, Gardiner detractors should travel a bit further than Holland or other socialist countries that have a penchant for quaint Disneyesque downtowns. Human scale doesn't exclusively mean small or historic. Big, exuberant, and neon-bright is good and can offer a very human experience too, especially if it's a celebration of the practical infra-structure that makes a 21st century city run smoothly.

© National Post 2006

AoD
 
Don't look to socialist countries for ideas about city-building... look to communist ones!!! Forget stilly socialist ideas like bikes and neighbourhoods and look to wise communist ones like heavily-lit art installations on highways! The obvious problem with the Gardiner is that it isn't big enough! More lanes! More offramps! And most importantly of all... more neon!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander... next week see Mr. Browne propose the revival of the crosstown expressway as a solution to Toronto's sagging tourist industry!
 
If those condo dwellers think living beside the roaring expressway is bad now, wait till they get sleepless nights from the neon through their drapes.

AoD
 
Its an opportunity to create a unique downtown feature in an otherwise mostly characterless part of town.

If downtown Toronto is charterless then what about the rest of the city? I think this whole article must be written in jest.
 
Any socialist country can build what they want, wherever they want, regardless of popular opinion. I stayed in a hotel adjacent to an elevated subway; I woke up promptly at 6:30AM every day, the time of the first train.

On a secondary note, we were surprised to find a brand new 8-lane road with an elevated highway over it built in our relatives' back yard (literally), where neighbourhoods had stood before. (guangzhou)
 
It seems like an arbitrary ingratiation to the Post's editorial stance, this "socialist" bashing--Kelvin Browne's not usually that specific...
 
I don't think the Post did any real research when writing that article. They were probably looking at a grainy aerial photo of an elevated highway running through central Shanghai (see the Post website) and felt that it was a good start for another pro-Gardiner article. They didn't even name the highway in Shanghai in the article!

The highway they were looking is Yan'an Road East, and it looks like this...

DSCF0147.jpg


Actually most highways in China are very well landscaped, elevated or non-elevated. The land in the middle of cloverleaf intersections and even on the medians of Chinese highways are often planted with flowers and shrubs (I'd imagine the job to maintain these plants is pretty dangerous). However, I doubt if the Chinese "love" their highways any more than we do, with or without plants or decorations on them.
 

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