[balenciaga]

People see the amount of cars on the Gardiner and assume that it's well used but fail to realize that it's not being used for its intended purpose. The vast majority (upwards of 90%) of traffic on the Gardiner enters and exits downtown. Very little of it is through traffic. Since this is the case, we don't need a highway downtown to bypass the city. What would be the difference of getting on/off at Spadina instead of York? Very little.

It turns out that gridlock is in fact caused by the Gardiner. The on and off ramps are the bottlenecks and create lineups of cars waiting to get on and off. For example, at rush hour, you can see a lineup of cars waiting to get on the Spadina Westbound ramp that back up all the way to King st. This creates a problem not only on Spadina but on Bremner and King. The whole downtown gets bogged up.
In alternative, if you had a surface route -- in this case a widened Lakeshore -- you'd have entry and exit points at every city street on the grid. You wouldn't be forcing everybody into these few ramps. Instead, you'd be dispersing traffic organically into all the different streets that people need to get to.

Replacing the Gardiner with Lakeshore also has an enormous potential of revenue. The Gardiner's ramps takes up a lot of room. Now imagine selling all that property to developers? Imagine the entire route of Lakeshore blvd -- which is now a barren wasteland -- being lined with new construction? That's A LOT of land. I theorize that we could pay for this with land development alone. Hey, that's Rob Ford's favourite catchphrase: let private developers pay for it. This one actually adds up.

Tearing down the Gardiner and replacing it with a new Lakeshore makes so much sense and it's a big fat solution staring us in the face. It's amazing that it hasn't been done yet. Political capital is required because it's a difficult proposal to sell to Torontonians but maybe a bull in the china shop like Rob Ford is just the guy to make it happen. But first somebody has to explain it to him.

This is exactly how I feel about the Gardiner for the past years. The traffic is a constant mess because of the existence of all the confusing ramps of the highway. If simply replaced by a 8 lane Lake Shore Blvd in the downtown area between Bathurst and Parliament, most of the chaos will be immediately gone, or at least not as bad. There is no need to dig an underground tunnel - the money should be spent on a DRL instead.

The existence of the Gardiner and all the ramps make surrounding areas very unattractive from a real estate point of view. Part of it is simply left abandoned. What a waste for the city of Toronto! replacing it with a tree line wide Lake Shore Blvd, coupled with a subway extension to Queens Quay will enhance the value of the southcore tremendously. I personally know many people who hate to step south of front street because 1, it is hard to 2, it is a mess there.

 

[MetroMan]

RRR:

Actually I would say that he was betrayed by his "friends", who went on and reaped what they have sown while helping to bring on the current worship (thanks, but no thanks), but I digress.

AoD

Yes. It was with a lot of pleasure that I watched Ford, the monster the garbage union created, return the karma. That garbage strike was infuriating and it had little to do with David Miller or any politician.

But back to the Gardiner, I don't think the case will be that hard to make that it needs to be replaced. Chunks falling off was just the beginning. The Gardiner is close to a breaking point where these kinds of incidents will happen ever more frequently. It's going to take somebody to get seriously hurt or killed for a senior level of government to step in and say. STOP! No more driving or walking under the Gardiner. That affects Lakeshore and every N-S street. Watch how fast the money to fix this comes out of nowhere.

 

[TOareaFan]

TOareafan:

Except that it is pretty clear in this case that doing nothing isn't an option - it is a necessity from a safety perspective. Now one doesn't have to chose tunneling for a replacement, but it is pretty clear that disruption due to construction is going to be unavoidable. DRL or GO Improvement have nothing to do with that.

AoD

The construction related delays with an ongoing upkeep program are expected, already with us and far different from those that would occur with a "tear it down, diga big hole and bury it" project.

So the expensive, and admittedly shortsighted, upkeep option is essentially the do nothing option......and I would wager would have far more public support in the absence of full GO service on all lines and the DRL.

 

[BMO]

This is exactly how I feel about the Gardiner for the past years. The traffic is a constant mess because of the existence of all the confusing ramps of the highway. If simply replaced by a 8 lane Lake Shore Blvd in the downtown area between Bathurst and Parliament, most of the chaos will be immediately gone, or at least not as bad. There is no need to dig an underground tunnel - the money should be spent on a DRL instead.

The existence of the Gardiner and all the ramps make surrounding areas very unattractive from a real estate point of view. Part of it is simply left abandoned. What a waste for the city of Toronto! replacing it with a tree line wide Lake Shore Blvd, coupled with a subway extension to Queens Quay will enhance the value of the southcore tremendously. I personally know many people who hate to step south of front street because 1, it is hard to 2, it is a mess there.

Everyone is pegging the congestion on the Gardiner, yet nobody has mentioned the tremendous amount of condominiums that have gone up in the area which I'm sure have only exacerbated the problem. I find it very disingenuous to peg congestion solely on the Gardiner, considering when it was built it was a necessity for many of the factories and rail yards that existed well before the condos.

I'm sorry but I just don't see how an eight lane mega blvd is going to improve traffic nevermind the aesthetics and public domain in the area. I mean, don't get me wrong, University Ave is a beautiful street, but it is a pain to walk across and is by no means inviting. If you place this on the waterfront it'll only replace one form of disconect to the Waterfront (aka the Gardner) with another. The Gardner has no traffic lights and it's jammed. The report that said an 8 lane mega blvd wouldn't have much difference was referrring to the Gardner section east NOT the most congested portion you are referring to which is Spadina. That would very much still be congested. I don't think the city every advocated for removing the entire elevated Gardner with a boulevard, it was only the portion between the DVP and York?(correct me if I'm wrong) And this was done way before development started for the east bayfront and before we even won the Pan Am bid.

If people really don't want to tunnel I'd prefer spending money on public transit and other projects rather than just funneling the existing traffic onto an eight-lane thoroughfare by the waterfront. Not even Vaughan has an eight-lane municipal avenue (that I know of)

 

[MetroMan]

Royson says "Tear it down", goes on to explain why it hasn't happened (people don't understand that it has to come down -- and it will), and then the comments section below the story confirm his hypothesis.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

This has been discussed thoroughly on Urban Toronto for as long as Urban Toronto has been around (2001). I can tell you that knocking down the Gardiner and doing nothing else would have little effect on traffic gridlock and I bet you wouldn't believe me.

People see the amount of cars on the Gardiner and assume that it's well used but fail to realize that it's not being used for its intended purpose. The vast majority (upwards of 90%) of traffic on the Gardiner enters and exits downtown. Very little of it is through traffic. Since this is the case, we don't need a highway downtown to bypass the city. What would be the difference of getting on/off at Spadina instead of York? Very little.

It turns out that gridlock is in fact caused by the Gardiner. The on and off ramps are the bottlenecks and create lineups of cars waiting to get on and off. For example, at rush hour, you can see a lineup of cars waiting to get on the Spadina Westbound ramp that back up all the way to King st. This creates a problem not only on Spadina but on Bremner and King. The whole downtown gets bogged up.
In alternative, if you had a surface route -- in this case a widened Lakeshore -- you'd have entry and exit points at every city street on the grid. You wouldn't be forcing everybody into these few ramps. Instead, you'd be dispersing traffic organically into all the different streets that people need to get to.

Replacing the Gardiner with Lakeshore also has an enormous potential of revenue. The Gardiner's ramps takes up a lot of room. Now imagine selling all that property to developers? Imagine the entire route of Lakeshore blvd -- which is now a barren wasteland -- being lined with new construction? That's A LOT of land. I theorize that we could pay for this with land development alone. Hey, that's Rob Ford's favourite catchphrase: let private developers pay for it. This one actually adds up.

Tearing down the Gardiner and replacing it with a new Lakeshore makes so much sense and it's a big fat solution staring us in the face. It's amazing that it hasn't been done yet. Political capital is required because it's a difficult proposal to sell to Torontonians but maybe a bull in the china shop like Rob Ford is just the guy to make it happen. But first somebody has to explain it to him.

In all the history about the Gardiner Expressway that I have read I have never seen it described as a highway for traveling through the downtown core. Rather IIRC it was built to get people into the downtown core. The fact is that it is being used for it's intended purpose, and is too successful for it's design.

Unless and until we have some real regional transit (and even then I am unconvinced) the Gardiner will continue to be used/needed and no expansion of capacity on Lakeshore blvd will replace it.

**EDIT**

In terms of mitigating construction disruption during a potential "big dig". This is where the cancellation of the Front St Ext was a big misplay. If Front St extended to, roughly, Strachan and connected to the Gardiner; than construction could go on in the central portion (Bathurst to Jarvis) to build the tunnel while motorists would have an alternative route into the city.

 

[BurlOak]

Royson says "Tear it down", goes on to explain why it hasn't happened (people don't understand that it has to come down -- and it will), and then the comments section below the story confirm his hypothesis.

The photo associated with the article really shows that the railway lands are a bigger obstruction to the waterfront than the Gardiner is. For anyone who hasn't seen it, an elevated Gardiner over the railway is another option (http://www.toviaduct.com/Home.html). Then the lakeshore could be a 4 lane road instead of 8 lanes, plus 2 left turn lanes and a right turn lane at intersections.

 

[andrewpmk]

If you want to see what will happen if the Gardiner is torn down then look at what happens when it is closed for construction (on a weekend!). You see nasty traffic congestion on Lake Shore, Queensway, etc. as well as increased congestion on 401. Demolishing the Gardiner with no replacement is a crazy idea.

Also taking DVP and Gardiner through downtown is a common route for quite a few people. This route is congested, but the alternative is Highway 401 which is also congested. Demolishing Gardiner would dump more cars on 401 and make its traffic problems worse.

 

[balenciaga]

If you want to see what will happen if the Gardiner is torn down then look at what happens when it is closed for construction (on a weekend!). You see nasty traffic congestion on Lake Shore, Queensway, etc. as well as increased congestion on 401. Demolishing the Gardiner with no replacement is a crazy idea.

Also taking DVP and Gardiner through downtown is a common route for quite a few people. This route is congested, but the alternative is Highway 401 which is also congested. Demolishing Gardiner would dump more cars on 401 and make its traffic problems worse.

well, too bad for those who choose to drive. Vancouver and Manhattan can manage without a major highway through the city, so can Toronto.

Or Take 407 if 401 is too congested. "Go through downtown" is never a good idea and should be minimized. This thing has to be done, sooner or later. Keeping throwing money fixing the crumbling Gardiner is not the solution and everyone knows that.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

The Gardiner will be torn down but I don't think the grand boulevard option will be chosen. Was it a 8, 10 or 12 lane boulevard?

 

[MetroMan]

The report that said an 8 lane mega blvd wouldn't have much difference was referrring to the Gardner section east NOT the most congested portion you are referring to which is Spadina. That would very much still be congested.

Why is it congested at Spadina?...

..Bingo! It's because Spadina is THE downtown gateway. If cars filtered in and out of a grand Lakeshore blvd. it would remove that bottleneck. Cars would get off at every street on the grid connecting to it, not just one.

The Gardner has no traffic lights and it's jammed.

Then adding traffic lights isn't going to make any difference for the worse. Cars are already stopped like you say.

This has been studied to death and the fact that doubts like yours still remain demonstrate that the problem isn't solving this mess or even paying for it, it's selling it to the public.

Somebody with no political capital to lose just has to say: "Shut the fuck up, we're doing this. It'll take 5 years of headaches but it's happening.You'll thank me later".

 

[balenciaga]

Somebody with no political capital to lose just has to say: "Shut the fuck up, we're doing this. It'll take 5 years of headaches but it's happening.You'll thank me later".

that's why I always think too much democracy is not good as everyone only thinks about his own short term interest instead of the big picture, so they are against everything which migh only slightly inconviences themselves (loss of a view, having to walk 200 meters more to a streetcar stop etc) yet serves a better purpose for the general public.

Gardiner, DRL, we just need a strong man say "shut up and stop all these meaningless debate and let's do it NOW". Major infrastructure improvement comes with a cost, and we need to suck it up instead of worrying about every possibility for 10 years and not doing a thing.

If we get on with it now, and skip all the BS studies, reports and meaningless and endless EAs, it can be done and in 10 years, people would think "what a great decision!"

 

[BMO]

that's why I always think too much democracy is not good as everyone only thinks about his own short term interest instead of the big picture, so they are against everything which migh only slightly inconviences themselves (loss of a view, having to walk 200 meters more to a streetcar stop etc) yet serves a better purpose for the general public.

Gardiner, DRL, we just need a strong man say "shut up and stop all these meaningless debate and let's do it NOW". Major infrastructure improvement comes with a cost, and we need to suck it up instead of worrying about every possibility for 10 years and not doing a thing.

If we get on with it now, and skip all the BS studies, reports and meaningless and endless EAs, it can be done and in 10 years, people would think "what a great decision!"

Well if that train of thought was used in the past, we may very well have had a fully built-out Spadina expressway all the way downtown...

 

[gweed123]

that's why I always think too much democracy is not good as everyone only thinks about his own short term interest instead of the big picture, so they are against everything which migh only slightly inconviences themselves (loss of a view, having to walk 200 meters more to a streetcar stop etc) yet serves a better purpose for the general public.

Gardiner, DRL, we just need a strong man say "shut up and stop all these meaningless debate and let's do it NOW". Major infrastructure improvement comes with a cost, and we need to suck it up instead of worrying about every possibility for 10 years and not doing a thing.

If we get on with it now, and skip all the BS studies, reports and meaningless and endless EAs, it can be done and in 10 years, people would think "what a great decision!"

I agree. This whole re-opened debate just inspired me to re-watch a documentary that was made about a decade ago on the Big Dig. Unfortunately, that project has become synonymous with cost overruns. What's even more unfortunate is that those cost overruns were related to the project management of that project, and not the engineering.

But I do agree that the time for bickering about whether or not we should do something is over. The expressway is deteriorating pretty rapidly, and it's only a matter of time before something happens that's going to force it's permanent closure, and then we're going to be stuck sitting there with our thumbs up our asses.

I'm about as pro-transit as they come, but the reality is that this expressway is needed, and will continue to be needed, regardless of how much transit infrastructure we build heading into downtown.

I did some measurements, and coincidentally the tunnel will be between 5 and 6km long (depending on where you submerge and surface), almost identical in length to the Big Dig's 5.6km. Would it be a mega-project? Absolutely. But it's not going to be too many more years before we don't really have a choice whether or not we should shut the Gardiner down.

 

[gweed123]

Well if that train of thought was used in the past, we may very well have had a fully built-out Spadina expressway all the way downtown...

I think that's very different though, because that would have involved bulldozing an entire neighbourhood. The Gardiner project, like the Big Dig, would be primarily disruptions to traffic, not expropriation of property.