[Juan_Lennon416]

Today's billion dollar traffic question...

Gil Meslin‏@g_meslin
#GardinerEast 8:00AM / 8:30AM The height of morning rush hour. #TOpoli

You just can't go by still shots from a camera. Another urban planning arse in Toronto who comes to a conclusion by using crappy information.

 

[Tuscani01]

You just can't go by still shots from a camera. Another urban planning arse in Toronto who comes to a conclusion by using crappy information.

The roads were a little lighter than usual today, but I can confirm that it looks like that nearly every morning, regardless of whether that picture is just a still shot of one moment in time.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The roads were a little lighter than usual today, but I can confirm that it looks like that nearly every morning, regardless of whether that picture is just a still shot of one moment in time.

Yeah. Nobody goes out during late November or early December for Christmas shopping. The stores are empty.

NOT!!

Happy Saturnalia!

 

[pstogios]

Yeah. Nobody goes out during late November or early December for Christmas shopping. The stores are empty.

NOT!!

Happy Saturnalia!

?????

 

[innsertnamehere]

The roads were a little lighter than usual today, but I can confirm that it looks like that nearly every morning, regardless of whether that picture is just a still shot of one moment in time.

The biggest thing with that image is the size of the highway as it stands today. The highway in the east end is 8 lanes, but has 4 lane feeders on both sides. Obviously the 8 lane stretch is going to run freeflow. Doesn't mean that a 4 lane replacement as planned isn't justified however.

The highway today is no doubt overbuilt, but this does not mean that building an at grade arterial is a suitable solution either. An 8 lane road can handle well above 200,000 cars daily.. this has 120,000. That level of traffic is more typically seen on a 6 lane freeway, and could be accommodated on a 4 lane freeway if needed. Meanwhile a 6 lane arterial road generally handles up to around 60,000 cars daily. That solution is a far, far smaller capacity than needed.

 

[amnesiajune]

The highway today is no doubt overbuilt, but this does not mean that building an at grade arterial is a suitable solution either.

You also have to remember that it was built with the expectation that at least one more highway - possibly two or three - would feed into it. This would've been the link between Scarborough and downtown.

Even right now the Green Line extension project is struggling to find funding, and most of that extension is along an intact former rail ROW. Think Finch has been a terminus forever? Lechmere has been a terminus since 1922!

And despite being a 7 km glorified streetcar line in an existing rail ROW, it's going to cost more than the underground, heavy rail SSE - roughly $4 billion CAD. That's why it's struggling to get funding.

 

[Euphoria]

Okay, I think people on here ought to really get behind the boulevard option. Save the city money and preserve the long-term goal of re-connecting the city to the lake. Take the savings and either use the tolls to raise funds for transit or scrap the toll idea. Either way, the important thing is eventually eliminating the elevated Gardiner and reconnecting the city to the lake. The naturalization of the Don will also go along way to restoring this connection.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Good luck tolling AND removing the gardiner. You may have a full on freeway revolt. I can just picture the reactions. "You want us to pay for you to demolish the highway we are paying to use!?!

 

[Euphoria]

Right, so support for the tolls really locks us into the Gardiner East Hybrid Option.

 

[amnesiajune]

Save the city money and preserve the long-term goal of re-connecting the city to the lake.

How is the elevated Gardiner any different than an eight-lane road with a 70 km/h speed limit that you aren't even able to cross in one traffic signal?

 

[ssiguy2]

I agree. I think the area is too thin to support a grand blvd and if you want to reconnect the city with the Lakeshore, having them run across 8 lanes of traffic with tone of transport trucks and everyone speeding and running lights to get back on the freeway sections is not the way to do it. I have always thought that Lakeshore does far more damage to disconnecting the city from the water than the Gardiner ever did.

Trench and build condo/office over it and give the developers the land in exchange for building the freeway under their structure. All the city has to do is give them a waiver on any underground parking. Out of sight out of mind, keeps everyone happy, and cost very little, and because it will be built by a private developer it will come in on time and on budget.

 

[Euphoria]

I like what was done with Lakeshore Blvd. east of the Don where the Gardiner was removed. A formerly industrial part of the city that people bypassed for decades has been rediscovered along with Ashbridges Bay. I'd also love a tunneled Gardiner, but since that option doesn't seem to be on the table right now with Council, even with tolls, I'd opt for keeping the tunnel option open for down the road and removing the Gardiner east of Jarvis. If the Gardiner Hybrid is built east of Jarvis, the city will be making a long-term commitment to the above-ground Gardiner.

 

[amnesiajune]

I like what was done with Lakeshore Blvd. east of the Don where the Gardiner was removed. A formerly industrial part of the city that people bypassed for decades has been rediscovered along with Ashbridges Bay.

"Rediscovered" in what sense? The area south of the Gardiner is still a mix of industrial properties, vacant properties and empty plots of land.

The Gardiner removal east of the DVP made a lot of sense because it was a freeway to nowhere. Just like the eight-lane Gardiner East configuration, it was made to connect to the Scarborough Expressway that never ended up being built. When the freeway was formally cancelled in the 90s, the city demolished the Gardiner beyond the DVP (aside from the Lakeshore off-ramp).

Gardiner East is not a freeway to nowhere. It's a pretty important traffic link used by 125,000 cars per day - not just for traffic into and out of downtown, but also people travelling between the east end/Scarborough and south Etobicoke.

 

[Euphoria]

Removal of the Gardiner east of the Don has been a positive transformation. I agree that the stretch of the Gardiner between Jarvis and the DVP carries more traffic, but removing it only adds a few minutes to drivers' commutes, yet it is a much cheaper option than the Gardiner Hybrid with significant benefits for reconnecting the the city to the lake and creating important north-south gateways to the Port Lands. When I first visited Boston long before the Big Dig, I didn't think of venturing from Faneuil Hall downtown to the historic North End. Now the two neighborhoods seem so much more connected. In the space where an elevated expressway stood is an outdoor market, swing chairs, walkways, and canopies. Is it worth so much to us to maintain an elevated expressway where there's so much possibility? And we're going to collect tolls to add insult to injury.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Is it worth so much to us to maintain an elevated expressway where there's so much possibility?

So much possibility like more blue and green condos?