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I was just watching this video of Tokyo and I was fascinated with how many elevated expressways/highways they had running right through the city and people seemed to have no issues with it or have massive complaints of how all those elevated expressways were 'ugly barriers that divided the city'.


And yet here in Toronto a single expressway running through downtown is enough to get many people outraged and cry about it constantly being horrible for the city, an eye sore etc. :confused:

Seriously I don't know why people dislike the Gardiner so much or think its ugly when I've always thought of it as something really cool about Toronto in that besides being useful in moving traffic through the downtown area without overloading city streets even more, the one thing I love about the Gardiner is that the elevation gives people a different view of the city that you won't otherwise get as you're using the expressway.

The Gardiner is pretty much the only time ever that when I get stuck in traffic, I actually don't mind and it gives me more time to enjoy the view of Toronto from above street level as if I were hovering in a helicopter among all the buildings. I just really enjoy seeing the city from the Gardiner and it would really suck if it were ever torn down and we lose that unique perspective of Toronto.

Also its funny that so many Torontonians dislike the Gardiner and think its the worst thing ever and yet if you were to search youtube for videos of people driving on the Gardiner through the core and posting them, almost everyone loves it, especially the out of towners who think seeing the city skyline from the expressway is quite beautiful.
 
Max Sterling said:
if you were to search youtube for videos of people driving on the Gardiner through the core and posting them, almost everyone loves it, especially the out of towners who think seeing the city skyline from the expressway is quite beautiful.
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I guess the question is, are we building a city to look good on youtube and in the eyes of out of town'ers, or do we want to build a city for those who live here?

That being said, I too don't mind the Gardiner and it's definitely a convenience for me. It provides a quick way out of and back into the city - and as you mentioned, the view is incredible. I do however, wish it was tolled so drivers would cover more of the cost to maintain it.
 
Tuscani01 said:
I guess the question is, are we building a city to look good on youtube and in the eyes of out of town'ers, or do we want to build a city for those who live here?
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Why not both? If you want tourism you have to give people a reason to come here and if you live here why not enjoy the beauty of Toronto that we have? :) I really hope the Gardiner or perhaps a new version of it stays forever as again I'd really hate losing the awesome views we get from it in addition to its usefulness.

That being said, I too don't mind the Gardiner and it's definitely a convenience for me. It provides a quick way out of and back into the city - and as you mentioned, the view is incredible. I do however, wish it was tolled so drivers would cover more of the cost to maintain it.
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I know it would never ever happen because of the cost as well as the public outrage and backlash it would get, but I really would think that it wouldn't be so bad to tear down the Gardiner and replace it with a double decker expressway from the Don Valley to the west of the city. So from the Don Valley if you want to travel straight through the core non-stop to the west you can take the express upper deck and if you want to head to downtown then you take the lower deck the same as you do now.

That would get traffic to move more quickly and efficiently and at ground level below the expressway you could allocate a lane or two for dedicated bicycle traffic and transit if you wanted to and the rest for vehicles and also you could take the opportunity to improve how the new Gardiner looks at ground level so that people would stop complaining about how ugly it is. I wouldn't mind paying a toll and other taxes to get that built.
 
Max Sterling said:
And yet here in Toronto a single expressway running through downtown is enough to get many people outraged and cry about it constantly being horrible for the city, an eye sore etc. :confused:
Click to expand...

Most people don't care one way or another about it. But there are some very vocal opponents of it, and cars in general, who greatly overemphasize it's negative impact on the area.
 
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Max Sterling said:
Why not both? If you want tourism you have to give people a reason to come here and if you live here why not enjoy the beauty of Toronto that we have? :) I really hope the Gardiner or perhaps a new version of it stays forever as again I'd really hate losing the awesome views we get from it in addition to its usefulness.



I know it would never ever happen because of the cost as well as the public outrage and backlash it would get, but I really would think that it wouldn't be so bad to tear down the Gardiner and replace it with a double decker expressway from the Don Valley to the west of the city. So from the Don Valley if you want to travel straight through the core non-stop to the west you can take the express upper deck and if you want to head to downtown then you take the lower deck the same as you do now.

That would get traffic to move more quickly and efficiently and at ground level below the expressway you could allocate a lane or two for dedicated bicycle traffic and transit if you wanted to and the rest for vehicles and also you could take the opportunity to improve how the new Gardiner looks at ground level so that people would stop complaining about how ugly it is. I wouldn't mind paying a toll and other taxes to get that built.
Click to expand...

I feel like that would be a terrible idea. We dont have capacity for more cars downtown. The roads simply cant handle it. Funneling a double decker expressway worth of cars into downtown would be a disaster. Not to mention that something double the height of what exists today would be ugly, no matter how much you try and beautify it. We don't need more of a barrier between the city and the water.
 
Tuscani01 said:
I feel like that would be a terrible idea. We dont have capacity for more cars downtown. The roads simply cant handle it. Funneling a double decker expressway worth of cars into downtown would be a disaster. Not to mention that something double the height of what exists today would be ugly, no matter how much you try and beautify it. We don't need more of a barrier between the city and the water.
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Which is why they never suggested funneling more cars into the core, they suggested building an upper deck as a bypass.
The only barrier between the city and the water is a mental barrier. Change your frame of mind and the rest will follow.
 
picard102 said:
Which is why they never suggested funneling more cars into the core, they suggested building an upper deck as a bypass.
The only barrier between the city and the water is a mental barrier. Change your frame of mind and the rest will follow.
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Seems like a waste of money then considering there are barely any drivers who drive past the core without stopping or starting a trip from the core. No double decker highway I have ever seen on this planet has looked nice, so no need to change my frame of mind.
 
I suspect some of the objections to the Gardiner stem from the miserable pedestrian experience of crossing Lakeshore underneath it. The shabby, degraded public realm is of course a given for Toronto. But pedestrians also have to navigate past pretty obtrusive on and off ramps that consume a lot of real estate when combined with the expressway itself. I’m not saying it’s dangerous, assuming drivers and pedestrians obey their signals. But it’s certainly unpleasant and ugly and it runs directly through an area that would be a natural for an upgraded public realm in many other cities.
 
Remember, the section that we want torn down is the underused bit on the east end, connecting with the DVP.

As for the central section of the Gardiner, I always felt that the rail corridor was more of a barrier than the Gardiner, though it isn't particularly great or pleasant from a pedestrian viewpoint that we have left the Gardiner to fall into disrepair.

I am open minded to seeing how pedestrian mobility is like after CIBC Square opens with a rail-deck, and if it were to ever happen, Rail Deck Park. Then we can see if the Gardiner is really the barrier it is made out to be.
 
Taken January 17, 2020
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innsertnamehere said:
I'm surprised, but think it's the right move. The Gardiner and DVP really should be provincial facilities.

I'm interested to see the details on how they will be transferred to MTO and how MTO proceeds with the capital plans for them.
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Wonder now will they toll the roads?
 
It's 100% the right deal. It's rare to see the major highways of a city fall under municipal responsibilities.

I doubt the Gardiner cap ex plan changes much, but I am hopeful the province would eventually consider burying it.
 
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