[the_conestoga_guy]

See my comments.

The only infrastructure projects which Ford has really dithered on, IMO, is Highway 7 and the Morristown Bypass. He's also pulled funding from the 400 widening and redirected it to other projects, but at least has left partial funding for parts of it to continue forward.

Speaking as a KW local, the Highway 7 delays are extra frustrating because they're preventing the Region of Waterloo from progressing on other rapid transit plans, too. Victoria Street has been identified for a road diet and rapid transit (likely BRT) after the completion of Highway 7. It's genuinely a farce at this point how slow progress is happening. The only planned work is the replacement of the Frederick St overpass, which is "expected" to start and finish by the end of this year. The project has been in the works since at least 2007. Even their official website cites 2015 as the project start date, and I can't imagine them finishing in the next ten years.

This is a very long-winded way of saying: I absolutely don't trust the province to build highway 413 in any sort of reasonable timeline. Highway 7 is comparatively tiny, and progress has been glacial. I feel sorry for the GTA constituents who are hoping to see this built in their lifetimes, and who will be wishfully voting Conservative anyway in hopes of seeing this built.

 

[allengeorge]

Tangentially related to 413:

Caledon’s mayor tried to fast-track a massive development. Then the province stepped in

Caledon Mayor Annette Groves tried to use “strong mayor” powers to fast-track rezoning on 12 parcels of land that lay along the proposed 413 route.

www.thestar.com

“A GTA mayor's attempt to use “strong mayor” powers to fast-track thousands of hectares of development in her municipality was cut short after the province warned that half the proposed rezoning approvals lay along the future route of Highway 413.”

Not sure what the thought process behind this was. And, as someone who has no idea of local politics in Caledon, this entire thing seems super sketchy.

 

[Haljackey]

Speaking as a KW local, the Highway 7 delays are extra frustrating because they're preventing the Region of Waterloo from progressing on other rapid transit plans, too. Victoria Street has been identified for a road diet and rapid transit (likely BRT) after the completion of Highway 7. It's genuinely a farce at this point how slow progress is happening. The only planned work is the replacement of the Frederick St overpass, which is "expected" to start and finish by the end of this year. The project has been in the works since at least 2007. Even their official website cites 2015 as the project start date, and I can't imagine them finishing in the next ten years.

This is a very long-winded way of saying: I absolutely don't trust the province to build highway 413 in any sort of reasonable timeline. Highway 7 is comparatively tiny, and progress has been glacial. I feel sorry for the GTA constituents who are hoping to see this built in their lifetimes, and who will be wishfully voting Conservative anyway in hopes of seeing this built.

You'd be surprised how much politics can accelerate (or defer) projects. There a lot more ridings in the GTA suburbs/exurbs than in Waterloo Region.

In 2022, Kitchener Centre and Waterloo went NDP, Guelph went Green. If the PCs thought they had a shot at flipping these ridings, they would have accelerated the Highway 7 freeway project.

The ridings the 413 runs through or are near are all PC except 1 (Humber River - Black Creek went NDP). This project ultimately aims to keep them PC as it could keep Douggie's government in power, or possibly keep them as a majority next election.

 

[darth_freeman]

Speaking as a KW local, the Highway 7 delays are extra frustrating because they're preventing the Region of Waterloo from progressing on other rapid transit plans, too. Victoria Street has been identified for a road diet and rapid transit (likely BRT) after the completion of Highway 7. It's genuinely a farce at this point how slow progress is happening. The only planned work is the replacement of the Frederick St overpass, which is "expected" to start and finish by the end of this year. The project has been in the works since at least 2007. Even their official website cites 2015 as the project start date, and I can't imagine them finishing in the next ten years.

This is a very long-winded way of saying: I absolutely don't trust the province to build highway 413 in any sort of reasonable timeline. Highway 7 is comparatively tiny, and progress has been glacial. I feel sorry for the GTA constituents who are hoping to see this built in their lifetimes, and who will be wishfully voting Conservative anyway in hopes of seeing this built.

I don't think it's some kind of weird conspiracy theory like you're implying. It seems simple to me - the population/growth of Brampton/Caledon is going to dwarf Kitchener-Waterloo, so the 413 is a higher priority than Hwy 7. Yes the highway will take many years to build do to the length and large bridge requirements, but it seems to be an urgent priority.

407 East Extension Phases 1 & 2 cost about $2.2B in total, took about 5 years to build, and 413 is expected around, what, $6B?

 

[nfitz]

The project has been in the works since at least 2007.

The project has been in the works since at least the 1960s. It was old news when I moved there in the mid-80s.

When did they start building the first bit of of it, from Wellington Street near Woodside to River Street - 1966? Now that but isn't even going to be used, and it turns into Shirley Avenue instead.

It must have "been in the works" for over 60 years now.

 

[the_conestoga_guy]

I don't think it's some kind of weird conspiracy theory like you're implying. It seems simple to me - the population/growth of Brampton/Caledon is going to dwarf Kitchener-Waterloo, so the 413 is a higher priority than Hwy 7. Yes the highway will take many years to build do to the length and large bridge requirements, but it seems to be an urgent priority.

407 East Extension Phases 1 & 2 cost about $2.2B in total, took about 5 years to build, and 413 is expected around, what, $6B?

I certainly wasn't trying to point out any sort of conspiracy. I'm just pointing towards a local project as evidence that politics can cause a highway project to be indefinitely delayed, just like you pointed to projects that can be expedited when there's political will.

The highway 7 project is also comparatively tiny, about 16km. It's actually almost identical in length and complexity as the Bradford Bypass. The concern that I have for Peel locals who might be wishfully hoping that this will be a quick and painless project is that the 413 will be 52km and will cut through more complex terrain.

The 407 extensions that you highlighted were roughly 44km in total and took over 9 years to complete (per Infrastructure Canada). If we're extracting linearly, we should expect the 413 to be completed in 10-11 years from when the first RFQ is issued. This is a project that will need to survive multiple elections before it's finished.

 

[KevinT]

This is a very long-winded way of saying: I absolutely don't trust the province to build highway 413 in any sort of reasonable timeline. Highway 7 is comparatively tiny, and progress has been glacial. I feel sorry for the GTA constituents who are hoping to see this built in their lifetimes, and who will be wishfully voting Conservative anyway in hopes of seeing this built.

But you can also look to the 401 widening and collector system put in between highway 25 and Mavis. That finished up rather quickly compared to the previous 401 widening from Mavis to the 410, and covered a much larger distance including major new/widened bridges over the Credit, Orangeville-Brampton railway, and CN mainline. You can't judge the progress of a future high priority project by that of a current low priority one. Not that I agree with the construction of the 413 at all, but it definitely seems like one of Ford's priorities...

 

[Steve X]

I certainly wasn't trying to point out any sort of conspiracy. I'm just pointing towards a local project as evidence that politics can cause a highway project to be indefinitely delayed, just like you pointed to projects that can be expedited when there's political will.

The highway 7 project is also comparatively tiny, about 16km. It's actually almost identical in length and complexity as the Bradford Bypass. The concern that I have for Peel locals who might be wishfully hoping that this will be a quick and painless project is that the 413 will be 52km and will cut through more complex terrain.

The 407 extensions that you highlighted were roughly 44km in total and took over 9 years to complete (per Infrastructure Canada). If we're extracting linearly, we should expect the 413 to be completed in 10-11 years from when the first RFQ is issued. This is a project that will need to survive multiple elections before it's finished.

It only takes 3-4 years to actually build a highway. Half the time is spent on EAs and design. This highway can be done before 2030 if they throw the money at it and not have the feds stop it.

 

[kamira51]

Tangentially related to 413:

Caledon’s mayor tried to fast-track a massive development. Then the province stepped in

Caledon Mayor Annette Groves tried to use “strong mayor” powers to fast-track rezoning on 12 parcels of land that lay along the proposed 413 route.

www.thestar.com

“A GTA mayor's attempt to use “strong mayor” powers to fast-track thousands of hectares of development in her municipality was cut short after the province warned that half the proposed rezoning approvals lay along the future route of Highway 413.”

Not sure what the thought process behind this was. And, as someone who has no idea of local politics in Caledon, this entire thing seems super sketchy.

She's the one who thinks extending the 427 to Highway 9 is worth putting on her election platform

 

[Haljackey]

She's the one who thinks extending the 427 to Highway 9 is worth putting on her election platform

I do hope the 413/427 interchange is designed with northern expansion in mind. I think they sit the bed with the 407/412 interchange as drivers need to get off the 412 at Highway 7 and find a route to get back to the 12 or another route northbound. Things got even worse when the tolls were taken off the 412, making it a more popular route.

Sure you could get onto the 407 for a short stretch but why pay a fee (especially if you don't have transponder) when you don't have to pay?

I could see the 427 getting up to Highway 9 one day- that would relieve some traffic on #10, 400 and #9 between the 427 and 400. Just gotta be sure it gets pushed through the 413 properly first.

 

[Dan416]

I do hope the 413/427 interchange is designed with northern expansion in mind. I think they sit the bed with the 407/412 interchange as drivers need to get off the 412 at Highway 7 and find a route to get back to the 12 or another route northbound. Things got even worse when the tolls were taken off the 412, making it a more popular route.

Sure you could get onto the 407 for a short stretch but why pay a fee (especially if you don't have transponder) when you don't have to pay?

I could see the 427 getting up to Highway 9 one day- that would relieve some traffic on #10, 400 and #9 between the 427 and 400. Just gotta be sure it gets pushed through the 413 properly first.

How would they route a 427 extension to avoid the Nashville Conservation Area?

 

[nfitz]

I do hope the 413/427 interchange is designed with northern expansion in mind. I think they sit the bed with the 407/412 interchange as drivers need to get off the 412 at Highway 7 and find a route to get back to the 12 or another route northbound.

Highway 7 is pretty much part of the same interchange as 407. Nothing precludes a 412 extension that I can see (or 418). The designs for 413 with 400, 410, and 427 all look to have similar designs as 412.

I don't see the alternative of building an 8-km expressway of questionable demand to Myrtle would make sense.

As for bedsits that far from downtown - I'm not sure there's the demand for that either.

How would they route a 427 extension to avoid the Nashville Conservation Area?

I'd assume along the western edge along Albion Vaughan Road, where there's already quite a wide allowance for the road.

 

[Student99]

Highway 7 is pretty much part of the same interchange as 407. Nothing precludes a 412 extension that I can see (or 418). The designs for 413 with 400, 410, and 427 all look to have similar designs as 412.

I don't see the alternative of building an 8-km expressway of questionable demand to Myrtle would make sense.

As for bedsits that far from downtown - I'm not sure there's the demand for that either.

I'd assume along the western edge along Albion Vaughan Road, where there's already quite a wide allowance for the road.

If they followed Albion Vaughan, might as well call it highway 450. It would be a long way off from 27.

 

[Student99]

I really wish the province could get back all of the 407 that's south of 401 near Milton. It would be great if the 413 could be made continuous down to the QEW, and the 403 could instead take the 407's place westward as was originally intended and go out to Burlington.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Highway 7 is pretty much part of the same interchange as 407. Nothing precludes a 412 extension that I can see (or 418). The designs for 413 with 400, 410, and 427 all look to have similar designs as 412.

I don't see the alternative of building an 8-km expressway of questionable demand to Myrtle would make sense.

As for bedsits that far from downtown - I'm not sure there's the demand for that either.

I'd assume along the western edge along Albion Vaughan Road, where there's already quite a wide allowance for the road.

It doesn't need to be an 8km full expressway. It can be a 2-lane road, even with at-grade intersections. It wouldn't need to be wildly expensive.

Whitby spent a lot of time studying a "Brooklin Bypass" which really should have been a provincial project:

Highway 7/12 Alternative Route Environmental Assessment

June 19, 2023 - Update At the June 19th Regular Council meeting, Council discussed the Highway 7/12 Alternative Route Environmental Assessment project. The discussion focused on whether to immediately terminate the EA or defer the discussion on the EA process to the

connectwhitby.ca

The preferred alternative is to build a connection between 12 and Lakeridge Road, which will then be upgraded to a provincial highway south to Hwy 7. Ideally it should have been a direct connection into the 412, especially now that it is toll-free.