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...Why not both?

Would GTA West even be used by a lot of Brampton folks? You're essentially going to drive north to get to the main employment centres in the south. That doesn't really make sense. I could see it as a way to get to the 400 or 401 for vacation / shopping trips but not really much for commuting.

Any new residential development should be designed with proper transit in mind and yes having proper bus routes and infrastructure like shelters helps encourage transit use. Also don't forget about park-and-ride options either. Drive to your local shopping mall and catch the bus or possibly even LRT there. That's how Kitchener built their system - malls on each end of the LRT; and that's going to be one of London's BRT termini.
 
It is engaging in fantasies. Brampton is primarily a city of low density dwellings with single family homes that don't back directly onto arterial streets. The employment centres are the same. The list of improvements you have provided is not going transition a meaningful amount of trips onto transit. Sure, you might get some marginal gains, but not enough that changes behaviour in a meaningful enough way that you can avoid the need for the GTA West corridor, which is what this thread is all about.

And that's what frustrates me about transit enthusiasts. There's this idea that the modal shift is just around the corner.

In the 70s the modal shift was just around the corner with the development of Advanced Light Rail Transit -- didn't happen.

In the 80s the modal shift was just around the corner with the trains developed by the Urban Development Transportation Development Corporation that led to the Scarborough RT -- didn't happen.

In the 2000s the modal shift was just around the corner with Viva Rapidways -- didn't happen.

At what point do we not start paying attention to reality?
Modal shifts are indeed happening, and have picked up significantly over the last decade.

This is mostly happening because of changes to land use demand, not actual transportation solutions however. The GTA's modal share is shifting towards transit and active modes because more growth is occuring in Toronto where that mode is preferred. Specifically, a huge portion of new employment growth in the GTA is happening within 1 kilometre of Union Station. Which is an area that sees 70-80% transit modal shares.

Brampton has managed to see a marginal increase in transit modal shares through it's quite successful bus frequency enhancements. But yea, it's still a very small amount of modal share.

I've done detailed posts on the required modal share targets to offset new road infrastructure on this board before, and it's essentially impossible. The 905 of the GTA basically needs to be tripling to quadrupling transit ridership to offset all the new auto trips that will otherwise be generated over the next 30 years. It's just not going to happen. The 905 would have to be posting auto modal shares at lower rates than the 416 does today.


If we double the rate of auto modal share reductions already occurring, there will still be about 33% more auto trips in 2051 than today in the GTA.

We would need a modal share below that of New York's metro modal share to offset all new trips. In order to do that, not only does new development have to generate essentially 0 new auto trips, you need to convert significant amounts of existing trips to transit or active modes.

I just don't see it happening. And even if we do achieve it, I imagine it will come from outsize gains in the city of Toronto with more marginal gains in the 905. There is simply no way we are going to get flat auto trip growth in the 905 over the next 30 years.

Can we reduce the auto modal share? Absolutely. And we should try to aggressively. We can't do it to the point of offsetting new auto infrastructure though, especially in new growth areas like Caledon and west Brampton, which have very low amounts of infrastructure today and are going to experience huge population booms in the next few decades, whether this highway gets built or not.
 
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I've done detailed posts on the required modal share targets to offset new road infrastructure on this board before, and it's essentially impossible. The 905 of the GTA basically needs to be tripling to quadrupling transit ridership to offset all the new auto trips that will otherwise be generated over the next 30 years. It's just not going to happen. The 905 would have to be posting auto modal shares at lower rates than the 416 does today.
It is speculative, but it seems likely that autonomous vehicles will disrupt urban transportation significantly in that time frame. One of the outcomes of that disruption should be a big decrease in the cost to provide bus service while at the same time making it more convenient. It will be increasingly frequent, more direct/faster, and more dynamic in its routing. We just have to be careful to ensure that the explosion in SOV traffic doesn't choke streets in the GTA. (nevermind highways) We may need pretty dramatic policy interventions such as dynamic road pricing to accomplish that.

So, I would not be surprised for it to be possible to hit very high transit-like mode shares even in the suburbs, given the right incentives. What role rail transit or even traditional bus transit will play is a bit fuzzier to me. I think there will still be a need for high capacity transit vehicles to move lots of people long distances, but I think to be very effective they need to increase distance between stops to be faster, and maybe lean more on AVs and/or active transportation for last mile. 30 kph 'rapid' transit is going to be challenged to compete with AV minibuses in all but the most congested areas. I understand why they don't, but it amazes me that long term regional transportation plans are completely blind to disruption coming from AVs. They mostly don't even contemplate bus electrification, which is very obviously coming, even inside the implementation windows of many bus projects!
 
^ Yeah, I don't think that's going to do it. Brampton is full of single family dwellings that are backlotted from the major streets. The largest employment centres in Brampton are low desnity industrial areas along the Mississauga border. Heated bus shelters only grow the transit modal share by 10% in internet fantasy land.
I'd guess that Brampton is the densest suburb in the GTA. Lower income + bigger families + basement apartments makes the density better. That doesn't mean there will be streetcars all over Brampton but it's a little different animal. Look how many people are walking around Brampton vs the other suburbs in the GTA. It's a substantial difference.

Saying all that, they still need to do a *lot* of change that won't be happening any time soon to get that modal share significantly higher.
 
Would it make any sense to shift the 413 much further north? Instead of passing just north of Brampton and Vaughan, and south of Bolton.

What if it branches off the 401 somewhere west of Milton, runs north until it passes Orangeville from the west, then turns east, runs towards the 400, and connects to the 400 north of Bradford but south of the 89?

Hoping that being so far from the main GTA employment centres, it will serve more as a bypass between the 401 West and the 400, and less as a residential sprawl magnet.
 
Would it make any sense to shift the 413 much further north? Instead of passing just north of Brampton and Vaughan, and south of Bolton.

What if it branches off the 401 somewhere west of Milton, runs north until it passes Orangeville from the west, then turns east, runs towards the 400, and connects to the 400 north of Bradford but south of the 89?

Hoping that being so far from the main GTA employment centres, it will serve more as a bypass between the 401 West and the 400, and less as a residential sprawl magnet.
A western extension of the Bradford Bypass, perhaps? ;)

Going that further north, I don't think it makes any sense to put in even a 4-lane parkway. I suspect the demand for such a long bypass just isn't there,since almost everyone would be going end to end when a good freeway route is more than just a bypass. If you wanted to close that gap, you're better off assembling a provincial highway out of southwest-northeast concession roads between Highways 6 and 9. Wellington Road 18 and Dufferin Road 3 would be a good candidate for this, or if that's too distant, then a bypass north of Georgetown from Highway 7 to where the GTA West corridor curves southeast.
 
Noticed also that it was left out of the list of projects under the $21B allocated for highway expansion.

I’m not reading too much into it yet, but it does look like the OPC is weighing whether it’s actually worth it.
 
What’s with the thread title? The mods appear to have added “highway 413” to the title despite it not being an official designation, but have kept the “Guelph” part in the title? That hasn’t been the extent of the project for 5 years now. Can we have it changed to “401/407 to 400”?
 
It is speculative, but it seems likely that autonomous vehicles will disrupt urban transportation significantly in that time frame.
Autonomous buses, yes. Those will cut the labour cost of running buses by a lot and allow better frequency and more off-peak service.

Autonomous cars aren't going to do anything for the modal share. They are just as inefficient at road space as regular cars. You can't fit more cars on the road. If anything, autonomous cars will make congestion worse for everyone because people will be more ok with 3-4 hour commutes if they can work or watch tv in the car.

Edit: Also, they haven't started figuring out autonomous driving in the snow yet, so level 5 autonomous road vehicles are many, many years away in Canada.
 
Edit: Also, they haven't started figuring out autonomous driving in the snow yet, so level 5 autonomous road vehicles are many, many years away in Canada.

Worse, Waymo and Argo have done a bit of snow testing; Michigan mostly IIRC but Florida's heavy surprise rains are similar from a sensor point of view. The expectation was they could gather data to produce filters for generating tests; that is, filter good data with "weather noise" for training purposes. Unfortunately, it seems that strong weather noise doesn't leave enough real signal to be useful; hardware improvements (rather than software solutions) are likely required.

The recently announced Waymo facility in Ohio sounded like it was mostly going to be used to tackle the snow problem.
 
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Worse, Waymo and Argo have done a bit of snow testing; Michigan mostly IIRC but Florida's heavy surprise rains are similar from a sensor point of view. The expectation was they could gather data to produce filters for generating tests; that is, filter good data with "weather noise" for training purposes. Unfortunately, it seems that strong weather noise doesn't leave enough real signal to be useful; hardware improvements (rather than software solutions) are likely required.

The recently announced Waymo facility in Ohio sounded like it was mostly going to be used to tackle the snow problem.
It is definitely a software problem. I can't imagine they don't have enough sensors.
 
Autonomous buses, yes. Those will cut the labour cost of running buses by a lot and allow better frequency and more off-peak service.

Autonomous cars aren't going to do anything for the modal share. They are just as inefficient at road space as regular cars. You can't fit more cars on the road. If anything, autonomous cars will make congestion worse for everyone because people will be more ok with 3-4 hour commutes if they can work or watch tv in the car.

Edit: Also, they haven't started figuring out autonomous driving in the snow yet, so level 5 autonomous road vehicles are many, many years away in Canada.
While I'm not a fan of the whole "autonomous car" future, and I certainly don't think it will be the future of travel, this is completely wrong. Congestion is often less an issue of theoretical capacity and more an issue of driver error creating ghost traffic jams from obstacle that doesn't exist anymore. A simple example is when a car changes lanes on a congested road, when he does so that usually prompts the driver behind him to stop, and because of disuniform acceleration, that stop creates a chain reaction where every car that passes by that point will slow down which can also reach the all of the cars behind that point, creating a mini traffic jam. If we were to theoretically reach Level 5 automation, the lack of human input would theoretically allow vehicles to run tightly after each other, accelerate uniformly if there is a disruption, and drive in a way that isn't possible by humans without major risk, which will avoid many of the traffic issues we see today, and overall vastly increasing the traffic throughput on roads and highway. The main issue that an automated future has has less to do with what's theoretically possible, and has more to do with feasibility. Any software engineer will tell you that foolproof automation solutions are practically impossible to be 90-95% foolproof, let alone 99-100%, and then you start running into issues such as liability in case of a software failure, and how a driver could take manual control of a vehicle (which if a driver can do that at any point, pretty much kills a lot of the advantages that full automation can bring). Even with stuff like automated trains, there are often cases where control needs to be taken by the central control centre, and this is an environment where all vehicles are on rails with consistent headways which is easy to organize and manage. Doing so with a traffic grid is nigh impossible. As a bonus, Software Engineers are often quite incompetent:
1616645403748.png
 
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