[Platform 27]

Can anyone tell me the advantage to a 10 lane core-collector system over the 10 lane core? They're both 10 lanes.

Mostly it costs less, which, y'know, does drive infrastructure selection decisions in the real world.

As the diagram makes clear, the 10 lane core has a somewhat narrower cross-section (55.3 m vs 70.3 m), therefore there's a smaller footprint and fewer land acquisition costs. A big cost difference is that core-collectors can make interchanges quite expensive if you're trying to feed both the core and collector with all manner of weaving ramps.

(Aside: Interesting how in official MTOese they've morphed into "core" lanes rather than "express" lanes.)

 

[Dan416]

Mostly it costs less, which, y'know, does drive infrastructure selection decisions in the real world.

As the diagram makes clear, the 10 lane core has a somewhat narrower cross-section (55.3 m vs 70.3 m), therefore there's a smaller footprint and fewer land acquisition costs. A big cost difference is that core-collectors can make interchanges quite expensive if you're trying to feed both the core and collector with all manner of weaving ramps.

(Aside: Interesting how in official MTOese they've morphed into "core" lanes rather than "express" lanes.)

Hmm you didn't answer my question. I asked what the advantage of the 10 lane core-collector system over 10 lane core was. You elaborated on the advantages of the latter, which I already kinda guessed and so didn't ask.

As for core vs. express, for as long as I can remember they were called "core and collector" versus the "express and collector" I hear these days.

 

[TransitPolicyChanger]

Hmm you didn't answer my question. I asked what the advantage of the 10 lane core-collector system over 10 lane core was. You elaborated on the advantages of the latter, which I already kinda guessed and so didn't ask.

As for core vs. express, for as long as I can remember they were called "core and collector" versus the "express and collector" I hear these days.

Safety is a big issue when you get very wide highways, as if I car breaks down you have more lanes to cross to reach a shoulder. Additionally, accidents in a 10 lane core, or 5 lane one direction, will be cause a greater disturbance to traffic. I'm sure you've been on the 401 and know that there is an accident in the collectors and get over to the express as soon as you can.

I would imagine in general the flow of traffic is better with a core-collector system as there will be less weaving in and out to get to your exit.

I could be way off, just my thoughts.

 

[TOareaFan]

Safety is a big issue when you get very wide highways, as if I car breaks down you have more lanes to cross to reach a shoulder. Additionally, accidents in a 10 lane core, or 5 lane one direction, will be cause a greater disturbance to traffic. I'm sure you've been on the 401 and know that there is an accident in the collectors and get over to the express as soon as you can.

I would imagine in general the flow of traffic is better with a core-collector system as there will be less weaving in and out to get to your exit.

I could be way off, just my thoughts.

my guess is that you are half right and half wrong.

The collector system, as it has been explained to me, has the advantage of fewer slw down points in the express lanes as each transfer point from express lanes serves 3 or 4 actual highway exits. Also, cars entering the freeway merge into the, theoretically, slower moving collector lanes and have more time to gt up to full speed before joining the express lanes.

As for the impact of accidents.....I think these are worsened by the system. Have you ever been stuck in an accident induced jam in one set of lanes and looked over to the other set and thought "if I had only got over at the last transfer"? If all the lanes were combined into one set there would be far more flexibility in getting around accidents when they occur.

 

[Platform 27]

Hmm you didn't answer my question. I asked what the advantage of the 10 lane core-collector system over 10 lane core was. You elaborated on the advantages of the latter, which I already kinda guessed and so didn't ask.

Sorry, my apologies for misreading!

I'm not a trained highway traffic engineer, so administer salt as you see fit, but my understanding is that the main benefit a core-collector configuration gets you is that you avoid mixing local traffic with through traffic, and accordingly reduce the amount of merging and weaving going on the highway on the whole. On paper, anyway, that makes for a higher overall capacity from the same number of lanes.

The benefits are maximized when there's a significant population of vehicles that are likely to travel either the full length of the core-collector stretch (or a large portion of it) without needing to leave the core part. That's considerably more true of, say, the 401 across the top of Toronto than would be the case if there was a hypothetical collector-express configuration in the 403 through Mississauga.

 

[salmonz]

The advantage of a core/collector 10 lane vs open 10 lanes is to establish controlled weaving patterns - separating the spaghetti before it becomes tangled - so to speak. The core prevents vehicles from weaving frequently.

 

[Dan416]

Okay thanks for the insight everyone!

 

[Markster]

As for the impact of accidents.....I think these are worsened by the system. Have you ever been stuck in an accident induced jam in one set of lanes and looked over to the other set and thought "if I had only got over at the last transfer"? If all the lanes were combined into one set there would be far more flexibility in getting around accidents when they occur.

In my experience, I would tend to disagree.
Having seen when accidents occur on the 401, I'm very glad that the express/collector configuration is there to limit the extent of damage. I've seen a car bounce off both side walls before finally coming to rest. If there was no express/collector, then he would have skidded through many more lanes, possibly involving more cars in the accident. As it is, we guarantee that at most, half of the highway can be closed at once. Being stuck on the wrong side is just an unfortunate price to pay for all the times you are able to fly past an accident without slowing down.

 

[Haljackey]

You really don't see many highways with a collector/express system outside of Toronto anywhere else in the world.

In a nutshell, having a C/E system is good for managing traffic flow on a wide highway as there's less cars weaving through all the lanes. However, it also has a disadvantage. If there's backup or a collision on the collector or express sections, traffic in that section can't use the lanes on the other side until they reach a transfer. On a normal wide highway, traffic would be able to use the other lanes right away.

The 401 is special as it serves local and long distance traffic through Greater Toronto. Anyone who wants to go through the city can just stay on the express lanes do they don't have to deal with local and merging traffic too much. It's a lot easier to travel right through Toronto compared to a city of similar size without a C/E system. There, local traffic will occupy all the lanes whereas on the 401 the express lanes generally are used by few locals, normally just longer distance commuters.

Regarding the 401/407 interchange, as I mentioned earlier it cannot accommodate a C/E system as the 407 overpasses are not long enough. I doubt these bridges will be rebuilt because they're fairly new and it may violate the 407's contract/lease as it will impact their traffic flow.
-That's why you see a proposal for a 10 lane 401 under the 407 with a C/E system on both sides. That's the cheaper method as you don't need to rebuild the 407 overpasses.
-Also, traffic volumes will be lower here compared to under the 427 and there's 10 lanes, not 8 like under the 427.
-It's hard to imagine that just a few years ago there were just 6 lanes under the 427.

Back on topic, its good to hear that progress is commencing well with Hurontario. Hopefully by the spring traffic will be diverted onto the new roads so the old roads can be rebuilt.

 

[Dan416]

You really don't see many highways with a collector/express system outside of Toronto anywhere else in the world.

In a nutshell, having a C/E system is good for managing traffic flow on a wide highway as there's less cars weaving through all the lanes. However, it also has a disadvantage. If there's backup or a collision on the collector or express sections, traffic in that section can't use the lanes on the other side until they reach a transfer. On a normal wide highway, traffic would be able to use the other lanes right away.

The 401 is special as it serves local and long distance traffic through Greater Toronto. Anyone who wants to go through the city can just stay on the express lanes do they don't have to deal with local and merging traffic too much. It's a lot easier to travel right through Toronto compared to a city of similar size without a C/E system. There, local traffic will occupy all the lanes whereas on the 401 the express lanes generally are used by few locals, normally just longer distance commuters.

Regarding the 401/407 interchange, as I mentioned earlier it cannot accommodate a C/E system as the 407 overpasses are not long enough. I doubt these bridges will be rebuilt because they're fairly new and it may violate the 407's contract/lease as it will impact their traffic flow.
-That's why you see a proposal for a 10 lane 401 under the 407 with a C/E system on both sides. That's the cheaper method as you don't need to rebuild the 407 overpasses.
-Also, traffic volumes will be lower here compared to under the 427 and there's 10 lanes, not 8 like under the 427.
-It's hard to imagine that just a few years ago there were just 6 lanes under the 427.

Back on topic, its good to hear that progress is commencing well with Hurontario. Hopefully by the spring traffic will be diverted onto the new roads so the old roads can be rebuilt.

Do you mean to say the 401 will have collector/express lanes to the west and east of the 407, but not underneath?

 

[Haljackey]

Do you mean to say the 401 will have collector/express lanes to the west and east of the 407, but not underneath?

If option 1 on this picture shown on the last page is approved, then yes.

 

[salmonz]

If option 1 on this picture shown on the last page is approved, then yes.

With the travel patterns that exist now, Option 1 may be adopted.

Westbound pm: Congestion at 407 to 401 on-ramp. A basket-weave should alleviate this issue.
Eastbound am: Point #1 - Congestion is usually before the 407. With Option 1 or 2, traffic will sort itself out at JSP where the collector/core split will start - eliminating the existing weave congestion that exists now near the 407 on-ramp. Point #2 - 9 times out of 10, there is no congestion after the 407 eastbound in the morning until you hit just pass Winston churchill, and if there is none, you'll hit congestion 99.9/100 at Mississauga Rd.

Option #1 will solve today's issues.
Option #2 will solve issues 20 years from now. (We'll have another Hurontario/401 project 20 years from now).

 

[LRGM]

Do you mean to say the 401 will have collector/express lanes to the west and east of the 407, but not underneath?

I don't think it would cause as much of an issue as it does at the 427 since some of the traffic goes onto the 407 anyways. For example: When driving to Mississauga in rush hour through Milton, traffic normally starts at Hwy 25/ Martin St. in Milton and then once we get to the 407 it is clear up until Mississauga Rd. / Erin Mills Pkwy. *Just my thoughts. The traffic patterns may certainly change.*

Does anyone have any updates about the 401/Hurontario work?

 

[vistaway]

The NB Hurontario>EB 401 ramp is complete (including side rails and signage/reflectors), but it dumps to south of the 410 on-ramp, so I have no clue if it will be used any time soon. Perhaps they just completed it now since it's somewhat outside the main bridge construction area.

 

[nfitz]

Might already be mentioned, but the WB 401 to NB Hurontario tunnel/ramp under the collectors is open - discovered this by accident in the rain yesterday, as I was in the right-hand lane, and still thought I had a long time to merge, when I found myself exiting!