AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Didn't see that one coming. That ought to make Wynne real popular - but good for her for having the guts say it (we will see about the do it part)
AoD
AoD
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- Thread starter Markster
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wopchop
Building Toronto
I didn't either.
To be honest, I think this is a terrible decision. Keep the lanes HOV-only, which encourages and forces people to carpool, instead of giving the privileged another privilege.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
From a capacity perspective, you are probably better off increasing usage of that HOT lane. And the priviledged is going to remain that way regardless - you might as well derive some monetary benefit out of it and use it for funding transit.
AoD
wopchop
Building Toronto
You're assuming that the HOV lanes were not well-used. They were. Usage is only significantly smaller in the new sections for Pan-Am that require 3+ people. If you drove in, or had seen the sections prior to Pan-Am (ie QEW through Halton), or in sections that are still only 2+ (ie 403 in Mississauga) you would see that they are or were fairly well-used.
If you reduced the Pan-Am HOV lanes to 2+, I believe that you would see good usage. I suppose that the Parapan Games will be the real test of that theory.
nfitz
Superstar
I thought that the government announced the HOT lin Wynne's 2013 budget. And re-announced in the 2015 budget. What's new in this announcement?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
It's a balance - I don't see it being a huge equity issue if you can maintain smooth traffic flow while deriving positive financial benefit from applying a selective toll on HOT. Nothing wrong with experimenting with it.
AoD
wopchop
Building Toronto
Apparently that is true, and it has been part of two budgets. Somehow I either missed it or forgot it.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Certainly they did....and when I saw the headline I assumed today's story was that the games had accelerated the move and selection of lanes to become HOT.
Turns out it is not the case and she specifically said so ..."“Whether the configurations that have been put in place on provincial roads for the Pan Am Games are exactly what will transpire when we put in place the HOT lanes, that’s not our plan at this moment,”
So, like you, I am wondering what happened today other than the media filling space on a slow news day with old news.
wopchop
Building Toronto
As for implementation, since these wouldn't be limited-access like the 407, it sounds like it would be similar to the Metro Express Lanes in Los Angeles, which are using the FasTrak transponder. There are no toll boths. The driver has a transponder and before entering the lane, must select the number of vehicle occupants (1, 2, or 3+). They can then only enter/exit the FastTrak lane at specific points, with double solid-white lines between those points to indicate no access / exit.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Unfortunately, looks like The Star is doing poor transportation reporting yet again.
The headline and first sentence makes it seem like the existing HOV lanes are here to stay and "will soon" be converted to HOT lanes. Not true, they will still be removed after ParaPanAm is over.
There's a better headline over at Metro: Pan Am HOV lanes could return with tolls: Kathleen Wynne (The article itself is the same, unfortunately.)
salsa
Senior Member
How about she stop the Hydro sell-off nonsense and implement the other revenue tools that were recommended by the panel of experts. Then you can praise her for having guts.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't really have a huge issue with partial selloff of Hydro One - and in some ways, that was a fairly brave one too (considering the Harris' didn't end up going that far with it). I am not terribly convinced by the arguements advanced by the old-left for doing things the way it was done prior.
AoD
ssiguy2
Senior Member
I don't really have a problem with HOT lanes as long as transit, Greyhound, and registered van-pools are exempt. They are a decent way to raise revenue and it's the people that can afford to pay that do. Many delivery trucks will use the lanes as well as the small added expense is recovered and then some as they get their deliveries on time and can make more of them. They also have the added benefit of freeing up space for emergency vehicles.
Tuscani01
Senior Member
Veering off topic, but I share that sentiment.
Essentially, electrical utilities will become less relevant over the next 10-20 years as people begin producing and storing their own energy. There will be a lot less money coming into these utilities, which will then require massive subsidies to keep them operating, and in good condition. It will be better for the government to get out of the business now, and focus on assisting home-owners and other users to switch to alternate power solutions. It means less maintenance and operating costs for governement, more savings for consumers, and a more sustainable power grid for the Province.
Let the private sector deal with the issues of less customers, less revenue, and an aging grid. It's a huge liability waiting to happen. Quite frankly, I'm glad the Province is looking to get out of it.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Electricity rates are getting so expensive that at some point, it becomes cheaper to just buy a few chinese solar panels off eBay and generate my own electricity. That sorta provides a cieling of maximum price. With falling prices for solar/wind, new manufacturers can build their own facilities. In 10 years, high electricity rates from an incumbent hydro will be a little less of a limiting factor -- whether or not we partially privatize Hydro One.
I really honestly have mixed feelings about Hydro One. I think we should keep it, but I'd personally prefer 15-min European-style electrified train service on the entire GO network (Hamilton included) even if I had to pay $100 more on my bill.
But at that point, I'd already have gotten my own super-cheap solar panels (my major electric cost is summertime; air conditioning & pool pump -- precise times I need solar). The prices are falling so fast on rooftop panels, I can already mostly power my 700 watt pool pump at high sun with solar (the moments the pump is needed the most!) for about $1000 of imported rooftop solar (not including install and box), and it'd more than pay for itself in the first 3 years. And it increases the value of my house, so...
So, pragmatically, there's an upper limit to how much hydro rates can raise before we do it ourselves such as via solar (when in the future, I can eventually get 1000 watts for $500 -- half a dollar a watt -- plus the base cost of system -- 1 dollar a watt system installed cost is my magic point, after subsidies). It finally fell a lot below $10/watt and is still freefalling. It's now possible to install at under $5/watt total system cost. The day is coming quickly and the prices got that low ($1/watt fully installed) already for China mainlanders. Now combine it with a price-reduced future generation Tesla battery costing only $1K in 2025, and I can bank the power overnight.
It's not something I need to do today, but something that may occur next time our roof needs reshingling. Like, 10 years from now.
It's getting close, to the point where Hydro One privatization might actually partially (shockingly) be a net-efficiency-gain because otherwise they lose business to increasingly cheaper DIY generation. Most world precedent shows rising hydro bills after privatization. But this seems less prevalent (less dramatic rate raises, sometime none) when the existing rate was already sky-high. And when customers now have options.
I really honestly have mixed feelings about Hydro One. I think we should keep it, but I'd personally prefer 15-min European-style electrified train service on the entire GO network (Hamilton included) even if I had to pay $100 more on my bill.
But at that point, I'd already have gotten my own super-cheap solar panels (my major electric cost is summertime; air conditioning & pool pump -- precise times I need solar). The prices are falling so fast on rooftop panels, I can already mostly power my 700 watt pool pump at high sun with solar (the moments the pump is needed the most!) for about $1000 of imported rooftop solar (not including install and box), and it'd more than pay for itself in the first 3 years. And it increases the value of my house, so...
So, pragmatically, there's an upper limit to how much hydro rates can raise before we do it ourselves such as via solar (when in the future, I can eventually get 1000 watts for $500 -- half a dollar a watt -- plus the base cost of system -- 1 dollar a watt system installed cost is my magic point, after subsidies). It finally fell a lot below $10/watt and is still freefalling. It's now possible to install at under $5/watt total system cost. The day is coming quickly and the prices got that low ($1/watt fully installed) already for China mainlanders. Now combine it with a price-reduced future generation Tesla battery costing only $1K in 2025, and I can bank the power overnight.
It's not something I need to do today, but something that may occur next time our roof needs reshingling. Like, 10 years from now.
It's getting close, to the point where Hydro One privatization might actually partially (shockingly) be a net-efficiency-gain because otherwise they lose business to increasingly cheaper DIY generation. Most world precedent shows rising hydro bills after privatization. But this seems less prevalent (less dramatic rate raises, sometime none) when the existing rate was already sky-high. And when customers now have options.
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