[Admiral Beez]

(And yes, I have been to Portland, where a stubborn and adamant policy of laissez-faire towards the homeless has pretty much ruined a lovely urban space. I’m strongly supportive of a sticking strongly to the centre here).

last year I visited San Francisco and Seattle. I was amazed at the level of homelessness, begging, sleeping on sidewalks, etc.

I've not been to Portland. But what is it about West Coast American cities that attributes to homelessness and begging? I go to Manhattan a couple times a year and you rarely see people begging downtown, especially in the tourist areas.
Is it because of the warm climate, or a political and social structure that doesn't like to take action against the issue?

 

[BurlOak]

@jje1000 the fix is to convince the givers to donate elsewhere. I wonder if these signs do any good? I suppose they admit we have a problem.

you have to make it illegal to panhandle. putting up these signs is just a way of victim blaming. Many of the people who are being solicited are in a vulnerable situation and I suspect they often feel compelled to give (i.e. either at fear of car being vandalized, being assaulted by an individual, or being verbally abused.

 

[sixrings]

It's warm. I'd rather be homeless in warm weather.

last year I visited San Francisco and Seattle. I was amazed at the level of homelessness, begging, sleeping on sidewalks, etc.

I've not been to Portland. But what is it about West Coast American cities that attributes to homelessness and begging? I go to Manhattan a couple times a year and you rarely see people begging downtown, especially in the tourist areas.
Is it because of the warm climate, or a political and social structure that doesn't like to take action against the issue?

 

[crs1026]

last year I visited San Francisco and Seattle. I was amazed at the level of homelessness, begging, sleeping on sidewalks, etc.

I've not been to Portland. But what is it about West Coast American cities that attributes to homelessness and begging? I go to Manhattan a couple times a year and you rarely see people begging downtown, especially in the tourist areas.
Is it because of the warm climate, or a political and social structure that doesn't like to take action against the issue?

.

Climate plus reputation, I suspect. LA is even worse - whole acres of tent camps, and streets lined with dead cars that are peoples' homes.

In Portland, there is some combination of past court rulings and libertarian civic administration that has declared a virtual hands-off policy. The whole downtown reeks of urine. They have a nice riverfront lined with park benches.... except that every last bench is occupied by a sleeping homeless person.I have no idea how their shelter network compares to ours, so I don't know if there are alternatives. But in good weather, I suspect the benches are more pleasant than the shelters. The lack of attention paid to unconscious people sprawled on the sidewalk was really disturbing....one person's "respect for their rights" is another person's indifference.

When we were there, it was the week of a major iPhone launch. As usual, some people camped out at the Apple Store to be first in line to get the new phone. Except that the street was already lined with homeless people, so the line for the Apple store was a mixture of homeless people and eager well-paid techies. There were a few tussles over who was where first. It was hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.

- Paul

 

[Johnny Au]

When we were there, it was the week of a major iPhone launch. As usual, some people camped out at the Apple Store to be first in line to get the new phone. Except that the street was already lined with homeless people, so the line for the Apple store was a mixture of homeless people and eager well-paid techies. There were a few tussles over who was where first. It was hilarious and heartbreaking at the same time.

- Paul

Don't forget about how some people pay the homeless to line up for a product launch (often electronics such as new smartphones or video games) on their behalf.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In Portland, there is some combination of past court rulings and libertarian civic administration that has declared a virtual hands-off policy.

I’ve never understood the hands off policy in Portland, Seattle and San Francisco. Don’t the people who right these laws live in these cities?

 

[crs1026]

Don't forget about how some people pay the homeless to line up for a product launch (often electronics such as new smartphones or video games) on their behalf.

In the case we encountered, it was the reverse....the homeless folks were there first, and were complaining that the iFans had no right to occupy their home turf.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

you have to make it illegal to panhandle.

But it is! At least at the roadside.

Safe Streets Act, 1999, S.O. 1999, c. 8

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.

www.ontario.ca

Solicitation of captive audience prohibited
(2) No person shall,
(a) solicit a person who is using, waiting to use, or departing from an automated teller machine;
(b) solicit a person who is using or waiting to use a pay telephone or a public toilet facility;
(c) solicit a person who is waiting at a taxi stand or a public transit stop;
(d) solicit a person who is in or on a public transit vehicle;
(e) solicit a person who is in the process of getting in, out of, on or off a vehicle or who is in a parking lot; or
(f) while on a roadway, solicit a person who is in or on a stopped, standing or parked vehicle. 1999, c. 8, s. 3 (2).

 

[lenaitch]

But it is! At least at the roadside.

Safe Streets Act, 1999, S.O. 1999, c. 8

Law Document English View

Welcome to the new e-Laws. It’s now easier than ever to find Ontario laws. We welcome your feedback.

www.ontario.ca

Solicitation of captive audience prohibited
(2) No person shall,
(a) solicit a person who is using, waiting to use, or departing from an automated teller machine;
(b) solicit a person who is using or waiting to use a pay telephone or a public toilet facility;
(c) solicit a person who is waiting at a taxi stand or a public transit stop;
(d) solicit a person who is in or on a public transit vehicle;
(e) solicit a person who is in the process of getting in, out of, on or off a vehicle or who is in a parking lot; or
(f) while on a roadway, solicit a person who is in or on a stopped, standing or parked vehicle. 1999, c. 8, s. 3 (2).

I suppose part of the problem is enforcement. The cops can write all the offence notices they want but the recipients are largely people who either can't afford the fine and/or don't care about paying it if they could.

 

[Jonny5]

I’ve never understood the hands off policy in Portland, Seattle and San Francisco. Don’t the people who right these laws live in these cities?

A problem with San Francisco is that it is really a very small city, and absorbs huge numbers of homeless from the adjacent neighbouring urban centres. They don't have the financial resources to deal with it. The annual City budget is only about one quarter of the Toronto budget.

 

[crs1026]

But it is! At least at the roadside.

The intent is that individuals must remain on the curb (and can "communicate their poverty" from there). Depending on the roadway, it may be possible for motorists to roll down their window and hand money etc directly to the person without their leaving the curb. This works well at freeway off-ramps, where the driver's side window may be at curbside. It works less well with 2-way roadways, which is what leads people to stand on the center median at intersections.

What's an offense is for the individual to venture into the roadway, which one often sees panhandlers doing especially to access multiple lanes of stopped cars.

As noted, writing tickets probably doesn't have much direct impact - although repeated contact with the police after skipping out on prior convictions may lead to consequences. On a cold wet night, the back of a warm dry police cruiser may not seem like a consequence - although I suspect that for most homeless people just being picked up and released a couple hours later is unpleasant. It's more of an inconvenience for the officers than for the homeless person, I imagine, so it doesn't happen much.

- Paul

 

[Admiral Beez]

I suppose part of the problem is enforcement. The cops can write all the offence notices they want but the recipients are largely people who either can't afford the fine and/or don't care about paying it if they could.

NYC had the same issue, you can't fine people who can't pay. So, instead they enacted immediate court hearings and sentencing, usually to clean bus shelters, etc. with a warning that a second charge will have harsher penalities.

 

[sixrings]

Yea it seems like a real waste of police resources to try to conquer road side begging when there seems to be more and more shootings throughout the city. If you don't like looking at poor people then don't vote conservative , donate to shelters, move to the country.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Yea it seems like a real waste of police resources to try to conquer road side begging when there seems to be more and more shootings throughout the city. If you don't like looking at poor people then don't vote conservative , donate to shelters, move to the country.

Clearly the police are unable to prevent gang shootings. But that doesn't mean they should abandon the traffic, property and public nuisance laws that make a city run. The police rarely enforce automobile infractions, will rarely come to a robbery scene and turn a blind eye to littering, vandalism, public intoxication and yes, illegal begging. The police should not be the ones deciding which laws they'll enforce and which they'll ignore.

 

[sixrings]

Clearly the police are unable to prevent gang shootings. But that doesn't mean they should abandon the traffic, property and public nuisance laws that make a city run. The police rarely enforce automobile infractions, will rarely come to a robbery scene and turn a blind eye to littering, vandalism, public intoxication and yes, illegal begging. The police should not be the ones deciding which laws they'll enforce and which they'll ignore.

We should just save our money and get rid of the police altogether.