[gweed123]

The thing is, subways are more expensive at this point and will be in the future, so what do we do?

Electrified GO. You could have electrified nearly the entire GO system for the cost of Transit City, and that would have benefited a hell of a lot more people.

 

[M II A II R II K]

The Diesel is pretty clean to start off with, certainly not more polluting than the cars on the road, or is it that it's noisier to make the neighbours complain or something...

 

[gweed123]

The Diesel is pretty clean to start off with, certainly not more polluting than the cars on the road, or is it that it's noisier to make the neighbours complain or something...

The main difference as I see it is acceleration and deceleration speeds. With electrified trains, each car can be equipped with a motor (like subway cars), so that means that all cars can push. This allows for more stations to be implemented, without significantly impacting travel times. It also allows you to run more trains closer together, potentially reaching subway-like frequencies.

The 2 biggest things that need to be implemented if GO is to become viable in Toronto are more stations and higher frequencies. Electrification potentially solves both of those, and has the environmental benefits to boot.

 

[BurlOak]

Again I dont think transit city was ever the ONLY plan. What miller was trying to do is help the entire city get transit while making markham more reliant on the yonge line. This would result in the province wanting to build a yonge extension but they would need approval from Toronto. As a result Toronto would then give approval ONLY if the province and the feds agreed to fund the DRL.

This seems to be a round about way of going about things - build the periphery to overload Yonge even more and then hope that money comes to relieve Yonge. In the late 2000's, transit money was flowing quite a bit. There was a federal Conservative government in a minority situation that was looking to restore and increase federal tranfer payments that were cut in the 1990's. There was also stimulus money to help improve infrastructure during the recession. The Provincial Liberals were calling the shots as they had a stable majority government (similarly, the Millerites were quite popular in Toronto) while the weak federal government dared not oppose any spending in Toronto since that is were they were trying to gain votes to form a majority. The result of all this money was the Liberals #1 priority of a subway to Sorbera's riding in Vaughan. Miller's was Transit City.

I doubt we will ever see that much money committed to transit anytime soon - so no other major transit plans could have been expected to go ahead.

Would it not have been better to build what was most urgent first?
The number one priority should have been to find how can GO (or GO corridors) be used to assist the TTC network. Next probably some type of DRL, Eglinton, or the aging SRT and extension. The Transfer at Kennedy has always been a sore point as well. Build the backbone first and then it will be easier to build the smaller pieces (BRT, LRT) one-at-a-time every time a few hundred million rolls in.

If your goal is to leverage the other governments for more money, my other thought is to built all subway tunnels (DRL, Sheppard, etc.) - just bore and put concrete liner, but no tracks or stations. There would be great political pressure to get funding to complete these lines when the public can sense that a subway is so close to being built, but not yet open.

 

[EnviroTO]

Transit City is fine as long as it's not the only plan, except for that Sheppard LRT which would force a transfer and look like botched banged up transit planning.

Transit planning has been botched up. It has been led by politicians out to get votes rather than looking at raw data and overlaying a fixed criteria for a long time. It was botched when the SRT was installed and it was botched when Sheppard became a priority for a subway.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Electrified GO. You could have electrified nearly the entire GO system for the cost of Transit City, and that would have benefited a hell of a lot more people.

That would have cut commute times in half.

 

[Rainforest]

If your goal is to leverage the other governments for more money, my other thought is to built all subway tunnels (DRL, Sheppard, etc.) - just bore and put concrete liner, but no tracks or stations. There would be great political pressure to get funding to complete these lines when the public can sense that a subway is so close to being built, but not yet open.

This is an interesting way of thinking, but it can't be implemented. Any politician or city manager who suggests building a subway tunnel with no tracks and trains, will be picked on by numerous opponents, and ridiculed mercilessly.

 

[Rainforest]

The 2 biggest things that need to be implemented if GO is to become viable in Toronto are more stations and higher frequencies. Electrification potentially solves both of those, and has the environmental benefits to boot.

The 3-rd major thing is resolving the Union capacity bottleneck. In the present configuration, the Union station cannot handle the train frequencies and the passenger flows that would result from GO assuming a significant role within Toronto.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Then there should be additional GO Terminus stations downtown with a Circle subway line to connect them all.

 

[BurlOak]

1. Going back from this map to either of those maps, isn't all that enticing.

2. The proposed timeline 2015 is unrealistic.
3. Rob Ford's map ignores construction on anything other than Sheppard and replacing the SLRT. Toronto needs more transit than that.

I just noticed on this map St. Clair and Spadina are shown, even though Transit City supporters were saying that the LRT in TC was nothing like those existing lines - which were more like Streetcars. Of course this map looks a lot better since it has more lines. It also contains many LRT lines that were not funded and cost more than what is in the Ford plan. What is important is which map does what people actually want. I think the answer is neither.

Ford went back to a flawed plan that had subway on a street that did not warrent it, while Miller had numerous LRT lines in the outer Boroughs, when the biggest concern was the capacity of the YUS and B-D line approaching downtown.

 

[Platform 27]

That would have cut commute times in half.

That's a pretty wild exaggeration. The GO Electrification Study quantified the time savings for both Electric Locomotives and EMUs, and while both made for appreciable improvements (especially EMUs), we're only setting ourselves up for disappointment if we get "halving" into our heads.

 

[ssiguy2]

TC was a disjointed mess, anyone looking at the map can see that.
What to do?
Here's an affordable solution that would bring mass/rapid transit to many more areas.
First, scrap the Eglinton LRT plan and leave it as a SkyTrain STC/Eglinton line. The idea of making the STC & Eglinton as one route is a good one but the fact that they are pulling down one line to build another is an obscene waste of funds. If they were to use the line as SkyTrain they would not only save themselves a cool billion but also the headache of closing the SRT down for what Metrolinx says will take a truly unbeleivable 4 years. Put in the cheap heating mechanisms and reconstruct the GO underpass and run the new MK11 trains. They are fast, reliable, safe, comfortable and efficient as anyone in Vancouver will tell you. The elevated the line from Kennedy to Don Mills which would save yet another billion as Vancouver is building an entire new 11km line SkyTrain line including a one km tunnel for kust $1.4 billion. Transfer $650 over to Sheppard as promised to Ford so atleast could build the first section of the line expansion..........Yonge to Spadina. It will then be a 12km line that actually goes somewhere and I think it's ridership levels would greatly increase with the opening of the Spadina extension.
That leaves you with a remaining $1.3 billion which should be put 100% towards electrifying the Pearson rail link. By electrifying the line you not only get rid of much of it's noise, smell, and pollution but also increase it's reliability. Add stations along the route all the way to Union and head further east as money permits using the rail corridor over to Pape and then tunnel up Pape to Danforth and eventually further north.
This would make use of a precious rail corridor which for some unknown reason Toronto has an aversion to but also create a functional DRL. It would, however, be completely essential that this NOT be part of the GO system but rather a standard Metro line just like anyother of the subway lines. Standard fare with complete integration. They could charge an extra couple of dollars for trips all the way to Pearson which is very common throughout the world. By doing this the line would actually be useful to Torontonians and by adding stations like Etiboko North it would greatly releive congestion on the Finch West bus as most are heading to the neareast subway station.
Electrifying GO is a good idea over the long term but it would do little for Torontonians themselves. Most of the people taking GO to get downtown are from the 519 not 416. How many people do you know who take GO rail to get downtown from Weston? Not many I bet and that's due it's cost and non-integration with the TTC. Making the Pearson link just part of the GO system wouldn't make a hoot of difference for the people of western Toronto or the HUmber area. If it was just GO service Torontonians needed the Finch West bus wouldn't be nearly as busy as most would take a bus south to Etiboko North station but they don't.
That is a very doable plan that would not cost the province one extra cent but Toronto more than twice as much rapid transit expansion by 2020 than they are now.

 

[gweed123]

That's a pretty wild exaggeration. The GO Electrification Study quantified the time savings for both Electric Locomotives and EMUs, and while both made for appreciable improvements (especially EMUs), we're only setting ourselves up for disappointment if we get "halving" into our heads.

I think he meant halving compared to the time it takes currently using the TTC. In a lot of cases, that may actually be true, especially on trips from the outer 416 into downtown.

 

[M II A II R II K]

I would have EMUd the SRT route instead as part of a local GO service and new track be laid down for that GO service that was going to be part of the SRT route extension anyway be part of it through Malvern and end somewhere in Markham.

 

[EnviroTO]

Electrified GO. You could have electrified nearly the entire GO system for the cost of Transit City, and that would have benefited a hell of a lot more people.

First of all you are saying it would benefit a hell of a lot more people but the ridership of the Eglinton routes, Sheppard route, and Finch route plus the ridership of routes running partially along those same streets is more than the total GO train ridership. Focusing on GO trains would leave people who are living close to where they work with a system that doesn't have the capacity to handle them while at the same time delivering others to places far from home. Does that really make sense from a prioritization perspective? Transit City was going to electrify the Eglinton, Sheppard, and Finch routes.