[Filip]

"it's not even an issue of clean or not ... just the general status of many of our parks / great sites - Toronto is not a pretty city on the whole ... but that's okay ... "

This, in a nutshell, is Toronto's fundamental problem: the embrace of the mediocre and third-rate as some kind of virtue.

I get attacked for saying this on SSC, but I do not understand how so many members embrace Toronto's grittiness as some sort of uniqueness that has to be fostered. If they want gritty, with tagging, cracked sidewalks, utility poles and postering; I suggest moving to Tirana, or Kabul.

 

[taal]

I get attacked for saying this on SSC, but I do not understand how so many members embrace Toronto's grittiness as some sort of uniqueness that has to be fostered. If they want gritty, with tagging, cracked sidewalks, utility poles and postering; I suggest moving to Tirana, or Kabul.

Well let me elaborate on this a little; There's really two distinct issues here (though there's some overlap):

1) Regarding the 'messiness' of our architecture / streets; A lot of this can be attributed to overhead hydro / streetcar wires, graffiti, excessive postering, and a little mishmash of architectural styles:
Some people genuinely appreciate this and feel it indeed contributes to a feeling of uniqueness . I fall into this category. There are a couple street in Toronto that best exemplify this.

2) General lack of maintenance; For example, cracked sidewalks, garbage, dirty and unmaintained parks and public squares:
If I at all seem to be proud or fond of this it's probably just me accepting this as commonplace. I'd completely agree with anyone that this isn't good and ideally it would change. But there seems very little in the way of hope that this will ever change and one needs to accept it as the Toronto way ?

A couple of the positive projects in this respect (to me at least) are the Bloor street improvements but more so the new sugar beach / sherbourne park - as the attention to detail in both these projects are so much better then any other 'public' project Toronto has done in recent memory (just compare it to HTO on the central waterfront - which isn't bad on it's own right, in a Toronto way ...).

 

[Automation Gallery]

This seems racist to me.

Ahh come-on niftz... you no it and i know it, if it was the other way around it would just be brushed off.

 

[gabe]

My favourite Edsel ( or whatever his name is ... ) Ford quote from the Globe article:

Mr. Ford wants things to happen faster – big things. He talks about making the waterfront a true destination, with attractions like the giant London Eye Ferris wheel and dramatic buildings like the curvy “Marilyn Monroe†condominium in Mississauga – not just “square glass condominiums.â€

He says that when he brings U.S. visitors to Toronto, they tell him, “Doug, you’ve got a beautiful, clean city but there’s nothing to do here.â€

“Well,†he tells them, “there’s going to be something to do.â€

Methinks we've heard this all before - spectacle! the Edifice Complex! etc. etc.

LOL He must be friends with some over weight republican blowhards. I have dealt with hundreds of US visitors over the years, biggest complaint i hear is, " i wish i had more time in the city there is so much to see and do"

 

[adma]

If they want gritty, with tagging, cracked sidewalks, utility poles and postering; I suggest moving to Tirana, or Kabul.

But we're *already* pronounced "Tirana";-)

 

[adma]

The Ford Bros are there for a reason; together they make up one brain (or almost). Their ignorance is on display now.

Let's not tell them about LuminoTO or the other cultural festivals (jazz, etc.) that abound during summertime: gravy, you know. Or, the blazing music scene in general ...

But it might be fun to remind these guys (again) that Chloe was filmed in downtown Toronto, not in N. Etobicoke.

I am still puzzled that Toronto has elected a mayor who dislikes the city. Has anyone heard the guy say anything positive, anything passionate? That is what I would expect from a mayor - to show some passion. It's part of the job, and it's politics. What up with that?

EDIT: if the Bros really want a new white elephant stadium, and another loser sports team, or a nice shiny ferris wheel, then they can have those adjacent to an off-ramp in their own constituency.

Maybe this is more the Ford Brothers style, to impress them Yankee visitors...

http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.p...anford-Downey-Architects)&p=513767#post513767

 

[mig174]

Sorry guys, I didn't read the whole thread so I am not sure if this has been discussed already, but re: privatizing garbage collection.

I don't understand why it's a good idea. So instead of all of our money going to workers, now 15-30% will go to somebody's profits? And how would paying someone a lot less result in the same quality of service we are getting? And what's to prevent people from striking? How will this save money, exactly?

And what will be done to prevent mob involvement in garbage collection, as it has happened in other places?

 

[Eug]

Sorry guys, I didn't read the whole thread so I am not sure if this has been discussed already, but re: privatizing garbage collection.

I don't understand why it's a good idea. So instead of all of our money going to workers, now 15-30% will go to somebody's profits? And how would paying someone a lot less result in the same quality of service we are getting? And what's to prevent people from striking? How will this save money, exactly?

There is no guarantee that privatized garbage collection will save money or provide better or equivalent service. However, it's already been tried in some areas, and in fact, privatized garbage collection has indeed provided equivalent service for less cost.

ie. Instead of just saying that it can't be done, some municipalities actually tried it and it worked.

I suspect a lot of this has to do with union vs. non-union workers. Most of the private garbage collection companies employ non-union workers.

There have also been some municipalities who have put garbage collection out to tender, but in the end it was still the same unionized city workers that won the contract. I have no problem with this. However, I do think this does put pressure on the groups involved (existing city workers vs. private agencies) to at least try to keep pricing reasonable.

As for striking, I'm a bit surprised you bring this up at all. During the last garbage strike, it was business as usual for the privatized garbage collection in Etobicoke. Sure private workers can go on strike too, but it's not as if going with the status quo in the rest of Toronto will prevent strikes in the future.

Remember, unionized salaries and protections do not ensure good quality work. In fact, some may argue that many unions go overboard to protect the incompetent. Workers have rights, but that right doesn't mean they should continue to work for high salary regardless of their performance, just because they have seniority in the union. All this serves to do is increase costs, but does not guarantee productivity or quality. Take the famous example of auto workers working for Toyota vs. those working for GM.

And what will be done to prevent mob involvement in garbage collection, as it has happened in other places?

Huh?

BTW, I think the main problem with any privatization plans are the huge "golden parachute" or similar clauses in some city workers' contracts. Why they exist in the contracts at all I don't know, but some could effectively kill any chances in the near to mid term of privatization of all of Toronto's garbage collection.

They may not be the mob, but those contracts are still holding the city's finances hostage...

 

[jaycola]

With all the dirt being excavated for the new LRT and subways, I think Mayor Ford has an opportunity here he may be overlooking.

Instead of simply carting off the dirt to some far off location, we should pile it atop the ski hill at Earl Bales' North York Ski Centre.
Presently the runs start at the crest of the don valley and run about 1000 feet to the bottom. I think we can double that!
The site already offers some great views of North York Centre and with the extra height you could get a panorama of the city.

We're already digging and carting the dirt away. How much more costly could it be to pile it?

 

[mig174]

There is no guarantee that privatized garbage collection will save money or provide better or equivalent service. However, it's already been tried in some areas, and in fact, privatized garbage collection has indeed provided equivalent service for less cost.

ie. Instead of just saying that it can't be done, some municipalities actually tried it and it worked.

I am not familiar with this at all and can't quickly find the numbers. Do you have a citation for this? I.e. how much money Etobicoke actually saved, for example?

There have also been some municipalities who have put garbage collection out to tender, but in the end it was still the same unionized city workers that won the contract. I have no problem with this. However, I do think this does put pressure on the groups involved (existing city workers vs. private agencies) to at least try to keep pricing reasonable.

That seems to be a reasonable option.

As for striking, I'm a bit surprised you bring this up at all. During the last garbage strike, it was business as usual for the privatized garbage collection in Etobicoke. Sure private workers can go on strike too, but it's not as if going with the status quo in the rest of Toronto will prevent strikes in the future.

So then is probably no difference in how likely it will be that the works will strike. Just because they didn't go on strike when the rest of Toronto did, doesn't mean they won't go on strike in the future...

Remember, unionized salaries and protections do not ensure good quality work. In fact, some may argue that many unions go overboard to protect the incompetent. Workers have rights, but that right doesn't mean they should continue to work for high salary regardless of their performance, just because they have seniority in the union. All this serves to do is increase costs, but does not guarantee productivity or quality. Take the famous example of auto workers working for Toyota vs. those working for GM.

Well, yes and no - that all depends on the contract between the employer and the workers. Unions are necessary so that employees can have a voice in negotiations with the employers. However, I do believe that in some cases, unions have went too far - like teacher's unions that pretty much guarantee tenure after 2 years on the job, making it impossible to fire bad teachers. This is not what tenure means...

I am certain that there is a happy medium in the equation of worker compensation and their productivity. Being paid too little means employees probably won't care about the job, being paid too much means you're not getting the best bang for your buck - so a middle ground has to be found and it's all in negotiation. Both sides have to be reasonable, though - maybe unions haven't been so reasonable lately. That doesn't mean they are evil and shouldn't be demonized by opportunistic politicians.

Huh?

BTW, I think the main problem with any privatization plans are the huge "golden parachute" or similar clauses in some city workers' contracts. Why they exist in the contracts at all I don't know, but some could effectively kill any chances in the near to mid term of privatization of all of Toronto's garbage collection.

They may not be the mob, but those contracts are still holding the city's finances hostage...

Italy has a huge problem with this. Specifically, the Camorra has left Naples in such bad shape that the army had to clean it up. Waste Management down in the States has been involved in some huge accounting scams and is well connected to mob activity. It's even reference on the Sopranos

 

[Eug]

Toronto on strike: A good week to be in Etobicoke (This article is from 2009.)

Today Turtle Island employs unionized workers to pick up Etobicoke garbage, Tuesday through Friday, and Mr. Holyday says it does it for $2-million less than it would cost to pick up the trash with city crews.


Trash talk heats up: A closer look at privatization

Union disputes savings
Staff in the Solid Waste department say the proposed privatization of garbage pickup will save $6-million per year, because private-sector sanitation workers earn up to 20% less in salaries and benefits than employees of the City of Toronto. Mark Ferguson, head of Local 416 of the Canadian Civic Employees Union, disagrees, saying “this is going to cost them more money to contract out than if they keep it in-house.” As evidence, he cited the experience of several other Canadian cities, including Ottawa and Hamilton, where in-house collection was determined to be cheaper.

More complaints?
Last year 7,219 residents in Etobicoke complained about their curbside waste collection — currently provided by Turtle Island — about 11 complaints for every 100 homes. Between the Etobicoke border and Yonge Street the city registered about 10.4 complaints for every 100 homes. Asked whether this means that private garbage collection will be about 2% worse, Mr. Rathbone answered, “2% is not materially significant.”

---

Well, yes and no - that all depends on the contract between the employer and the workers. Unions are necessary so that employees can have a voice in negotiations with the employers. However, I do believe that in some cases, unions have went too far - like teacher's unions that pretty much guarantee tenure after 2 years on the job, making it impossible to fire bad teachers. This is not what tenure means...

It really depends on the employer. I don't think unions are necessary, but they can become necessary if the employers are bastards. However, many businesses function just fine with relatively happy employees without unions. For example, at one institution I worked at, there were unionized workers and non-unionized workers. The unionized workers were happy with their contracts for the most part, but so were the non-unionized workers. The workplace felt it was reasonable to employ non-unionized workers at approximately the 75th percentile in terms of pay, as compared to workers at other places in the same jobs. That was considered reasonable by both the workplace and the employees and was high enough to attract good people and to prevent excessive turnover. So, they didn't pay the highest, but pay isn't everything of course.

In contrast, I know someone who worked in the hospitality industry and the owners of the place were consistently paying their workers under the table below minimum wage. Then they threatened to unionize, and things changed. OTOH, when workers threatened to unionize at a Wal-Mart a few years ago, Wal-Mart simply closed the store and put everyone there out of work. Wal-Mart consistently has the worst people working there in terms of knowledge IMO, and they pay their employees crap from what I gather. I'd love to see Wal-Mart go all union, because they've already demonstrated they have little intention of providing quality or good wages and protections. Meanwhile, all big banks in Canada are non-union. I've been told most of the employees like the hours at the front line. However, many working at the head offices in the high-level finance/research/investment arms, etc. have absolutely terrible hours… but then again they make huge bonuses that compensate.

P.S. Note that Turtle Island's workers are in fact unionized, but the salaries are lower than CUPE.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Wonder if the mayor will attend the Easter parade on the Beach? Or is that gravy to be cut? See this link.

On Easter, Sunday, April 24, the Toronto Transit Commission celebrates the important role public transit has played in the history of the Beaches by presenting a procession of streetcars during the annual Beaches Lions’ Club Easter Parade along Queen Street East.

Transit fans can get a chance to view and photograph vintage and current streetcars, including a classic Peter Witt car, which served Torontonians from 1921 to 1963, an iconic PCC (“Presidents’ Conference Committee”) car that rolled the rails throughout Toronto from 1939 until 1996, and the TTC’s current car, the CLRV (Canadian Light Rail Vehicle), which first carried passengers in 1977.

Will he be brave enough to face the vintage streetcars that will take part of the parade, despite his phobia?

 

[adma]

Will he be brave enough to face the vintage streetcars that will take part of the parade, despite his phobia?

Why not? They're benign museum pieces. As such, they're his ideal--they're not like the future of transport or anything;-)

 

[Voltz]

Wonder if the mayor will attend the Easter parade on the Beach? Or is that gravy to be cut? See this link.

He campaigned at the parade last year.

 

[MetroMan]

He was at the parade today. Something very befitting of the "streets are for cars" Mayor: immediately after the parade was over, the clean up sweeper truck came behind to clean the streets and Queen St. E instantly returned to cars. Why it wasn't appropriate? Just as people were getting up from sitting along the route, the truck came and swept dust into the air with no way for people to escape because of the crowds.. I had to throw a blanket on to my 4 year old niece. Bad way to end the parade. At least give people a few minutes to clear the sidewalks.