[RC8]

No mate, it's the victim mentality that clouds the judgement of the QuAIA people.

I was in NY last month. At a library, a librarian kindly asked a man to remove his backpack from one of the hallways, as it was obstructing the entrance. The guy, who was black, flipped and went on a loud uncomfortable rant about how he was being discriminated for being black - then stormed off...

I see what's going on here as the exact same thing.

In 2008 or then abouts a Cypriot Turkish flag was hanged at a football stadium in London. Greek Cypriot supporters of the same club complained. The club banned all national flags and threatened to kick out anyone bringing one to the ground. Everyone was pissed, but respected the resolution.

What's happening here isn't much different to that - except the QuAIA people decided to be idiots and bring back the offensive flag refusing to acknowledge the mediators' advice. Alvarez presumably asked them to not participate and refused them funding, so why would they still do it? It's absolutely uncalled for and gay discrimination has nothing to do with it at this stage.

Removing funding for the whole thing for this might be trivial, but those with the banners have ZERO right to complain if the funding is indeed removed. Only those who disapproved of their participation would be hard-done by the measure.

Before this whole episode I thought Ford's attempt to withdraw funds was cringe-worthy. After seeing not only the QuAIA misbehave, but so many people take their side just for the sake of being against big bad Ford, they've lost all my sympathy.

 

[nfitz]

I'm curious nfitz. Can you provide any proof of Ford's alleged prejudiced propaganda? Aside from your own dislike of the man. I'm still waiting for the smoking gun.

???? The complete boycott of 10 days of pride events isn't enough evidence?

What about his statements that homosexuality is a choice? What about his statement that he has the same thoughts as Wendell Brereton? What about his statement that he doesn't support same-sex marriage? What about his statement that the city should stop AIDS programs ... not because of the money ... but because it's only a disease that drug-users and gays get? We've discussed all this extensively earlier in the thread - and in his election thread.

If anyone can after all this evidence still claim that Rob Ford is not prejudiced against gays - then I would suggest that they themselves have their own prejudices.

 

[nfitz]

Before this whole episode I thought Ford's attempt to withdraw funds was cringe-worthy. After seeing not only the QuAIA misbehave, but so many people take their side just for the sake of being against big bad Ford, they've lost all my sympathy.

The difference here though, is that Rob Ford is an anti-gay bigot. I'd think that he would be intelligent and adapting to the context, and keep his mouth shut, to hide his bigotry. However as well as Rob Ford being an anti-gay bigot, I'm starting to question his intelligence.

Besides ... there's no evidence that this group did participate. If some individuals want to carry flags ... how can you ever stop that. To raise the issue about it during this particular parade - but not at other times - is simply bigotry.

I fail to see why you condone bigotry.

 

[GraphicMatt]

It's not reasonable to expect the Pride Toronto organizers to police every chant, sign, or prop that is shouted or displayed along the parade route. They do make every effort to ensure that only groups that are registered to march in the parade actually march in the parade.

QuAIA promised they would not participate this year, and they honoured that promise. They did not attend.

Beyond that, is there anything explicitly hateful about supporting the establishment of a Palestinian State and being critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Why?

 

[GraphicMatt]

I'm curious nfitz. Can you provide any proof of Ford's alleged prejudiced propaganda? Aside from your own dislike of the man. I'm still waiting for the smoking gun.

I don't tend to go for name calling, but it's worth pointing out that he had numerous opportunities over the past week to correct those who believe him to be anti-gay, some of which wouldn't have even required him to leave his office, and he passed on every single one of them.

What evidence do we have that he's not, at the very least, extremely uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality at this point? I don't think it's a stretch to say that that kind of discomfort is akin to bigotry these days.

 

[RC8]

I think it's quite obvious Ford is tremendously ignorant about the nature of homosexuality. His judgement has therefore been horrid and unfair when dealing with most gay-related issues.

That does not mean that in this particular occasion what QuAIA did wasn't downright uncalled for. The tone of the protesters would not be tolerated in any of the stadiums in this city due to the risk of offending fellow participants. Why should a city-funded parade be any different? Why can't they focus on the things that bring them together for once?

 

[nfitz]

I think it's quite obvious Ford is tremendously ignorant about the nature of homosexuality. His judgement has therefore been horrid and unfair when dealing with most gay-related issues.

Isn't that reason enough for his resignation?

How can a man who is barely into his 40s who has been in politics since his 20s be so ignorant and make such poor decisions? His decisions are clearly prejudiced. By definition he is a bigot. And bigots shouldn't hold public office. This is what I might expect of someone in his 70s or 80s - not of someone of his generation.

That does not mean that in this particular occasion what QuAIA did wasn't downright uncalled for. The tone of the protesters would not be tolerated in any of the stadiums in this city due to the risk of offending fellow participants. Why should a city-funded parade be any different? Why can't they focus on the things that bring them together for once?

As far as I understand the group did not participate. Exactly what are you referring to?

 

[RC8]

It's not reasonable to expect the Pride Toronto organizers to police every chant, sign, or prop that is shouted or displayed along the parade route. They do make every effort to ensure that only groups that are registered to march in the parade actually march in the parade.

QuAIA promised they would not participate this year, and they honoured that promise. They did not attend.

Beyond that, is there anything explicitly hateful about supporting the establishment of a Palestinian State and being critical of the actions of the Israeli government? Why?

It isn't necessarily hateful, but it's controversial. The Palestinians could have existed in their current territories had they not decided to attack Israel and decidedly kick jews out of the middle east. Israelies therefore feel that whenever they've given their neighbours a break they've ended up declaring war on them. Palestinians claim that this is not the case and their lands were wrongfully removed from them and therefore any posterior action was justified. Some even disapprove of the actions that led to the 6-day war. Israelies and Palestinians both live in fear of what the other side is capable of doing - and suicide bombs and military operations have taken the lives of thousands over the years.

It isn't something that you can just lightly take a side on, and it sparks strong emotions for all those who have lost loved ones in the conflict. LGBTQ issues are nowhere to be found in the whole thing, and so its relevance to PRIDE is nil.

If everyone was just disapproving of those who showed up instead of defending their right to do so on the basis of some mythological gay rights issue, the outcome would probably be a lot more positive for Pride.

 

[Ak2809]

Isn't that reason enough for his resignation?

How can a man who is barely into his 40s who has been in politics since his 20s be so ignorant and make such poor decisions? His decisions are clearly prejudiced. By definition he is a bigot. And bigots shouldn't hold public office. This is what I might expect of someone in his 70s or 80s - not of someone of his generation.

If we disallowed anyone that may fit under the dictionary definition of bigot, then I would suspect city hall would have very few people able to take office. I'm referring to leftist and coservative bigots.

Are we going to disqualify people from holding an office based on your perceptions of what is morally right?

 

[nfitz]

The Palestinians could have existed in their current territories had they not decided to attack Israel and decidedly kick jews out of the middle east.

Uh ... that was what - nearly two thousand years ago?

And even if Israel is in the right here ... I fail to a handful of people - in what the media reported today as over 1-million people - justifies cutting off funding to a gay event.

 

[RC8]

Isn't that reason enough for his resignation?

How can a man who is barely into his 40s who has been in politics since his 20s be so ignorant and make such poor decisions? His decisions are clearly prejudiced. By definition he is a bigot. And bigots shouldn't hold public office. This is what I might expect of someone in his 70s or 80s - not of someone of his generation.

As far as I understand the group did not participate. Exactly what are you referring to?

I understood that those marching were members of the group, even if the group didn't formally participate.

I think there are many many reasons why Ford shouldn't be in office. I despise everything he stands for. I can't stand selfish suburban brutes who can't see beyond their own interest, and I cannot believe that in this day and age the city of Toronto would elect someone who thinks fossil-fuel powered individual SUVs are a viable option for the commuters of the future.

But that doesn't mean that the people who made the 'Fuck Rob Ford' graffiti on city property (the one on the gardiner) shouldn't be fined or jailed. In this case, if the city made the very reasonable petition to the organizers to avoid controversial political demonstrations, those who participated in those demonstrations have no right to complain about the consequences.

 

[RC8]

Uh ... that was what - nearly two thousand years ago?

And even if Israel is in the right here ... I fail to a handful of people - in what the media reported today as over 1-million people - justifies cutting off funding to a gay event.

No, more like 50 years ago. But regardless,

I agree with you, a handful of people shouldn't justify pulling out the funding for the whole thing, far from it... but if the participants and organizers predominantly argue in favour of these people as opposed to condemning them, they are screwing themselves over. Do you not understand?

P.S. As I understand the organizers have actually taken the right stand.

 

[adma]

What evidence do we have that he's not, at the very least, extremely uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality at this point? I don't think it's a stretch to say that that kind of discomfort is akin to bigotry these days.

I don't know if it's "the idea of homosexuality" so much as something retroactively bigger. Sort of like (and this doesn't relate to Ford's own domestic issues) an ex-husband who goes white as a ghost at the sight of the ex-wife he had been accused of beating.

Mammoliti is probably more authentically "uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality" at this point. Ford's more scared-sh*tless of what his past expressed discomforts/ignorances hath wrought...

 

[nfitz]

If we disallowed anyone that may fit under the dictionary definition of bigot, then I would suspect city hall would have very few people able to take office.

Let's stick to the categories generally covered by human right legislation. Anti-black bigots, anti-white bigots, anti-(any other skin colour or ethnic group) bigots, anti-gay bigots, anti-women bigots, anti-men bigots. You know, the category where if you say "I hate ____" in the office, you find yourself marched out the door. Compare perhaps to hating smokers ... if one said one hated smokers, I doubt one would lose ones job!

I'm referring to leftist and coservative bigots.

I'm not even sure what a leftist bigot is ... if a leftist is anti-Semitic ... then they are a bigot. Is this what you mean?

Are we going to disqualify people from holding an office based on your perceptions of what is morally right?

No ... let's stick to the "couldn't keep a job if one said one didn't like that group" acid test.

 

[Torontovibe]

While I share your lowly opinion of Ford and Mammoliti, I think that using a city-funded parade to protest against anything other than for what it's intended, is unnecessary and easily avoidable.

Why jeopardize the whole parade like that? It's idiotic once you've been told (rightly so) not to do it.

Every community has shit disturbers and selfish people who put their own needs and issues first. Toronto has over 400,000 non-heterosexuals and only a few dozen or more, who are the ones causing all the drama. Put things into perspective. Most gays do not like what's going on and do not support their cause. It's impossible to stop people from protesting and doing what they do. The best thing we all could have done was just ignore it. Let them express their views and life goes on. Instead the city made a huge issue about it, bringing even more attention to them and emboldening their cause. This has been handled badly and it really didn't have to be this way. Yes, Pride has it's history in protest but for most of us, it's more about having fun and sending out a positive message. Who needs the trouble of playing police and banning groups? It just doesn't sit well to pit pride against another gay group. I don't know what people expect Pride to do? Of course, the anti-gay crowd is loving all this because it gives them a reason to demand the end of Pride and it's funding. Do you think they actually care about Israel or Palestinians? Of course not. The bottom line is, they hate gays and want to hurt them, just out of spite. They won't succeed because grant or no grant, gays will continue to go to pride and walk down Yonge Street in a parade or march. (approved or NOT approved by the city) I'd like to see Mr. Ford arrest 10,000+ angry queers. FAT CHANCE!