[cgwalnut]

did the battle of Seattle change anything?
we shut it down!
so?

what did happen is that the globalization movement is stronger than ever, the police/security budgets and powers have ballooned in response, the lines are drawn, the discourse is destroyed and dumbed down and the "radical left" has made a bogeyman of itself.
the issues became a second thought.

I'm just saying that the same old protests don't work, are actually counter-productive and annoying (!).
let's get beyond the chant and the march. they last seconds. we need to create a debate that lasts generations.
i think a healthy majority of Torontonians would agree with me about that.

i think the silent shaming of him is appropriate for this event (it's not about him - it's about families - don't make it about him). perhaps other ideas could be put to use in other venues.

and, don't get me started about vancouver (!).

 

[JustAnotherGuy]

Yeah, protests don't work, but defenestration does! (Would he fit?)

Oddly enough, or perhaps not so oddly, several early instances of defenestration involved town officials -- but in Prague, not Toronto, way back in the 1400s. How upset do people have to be with their local political representatives that they feel compelled to throw them out a window?

 

[cgwalnut]

oh, and, one more thing:

this isn't colonial India, East Berlin or Tahrir square. It's an average city in a functional, mature and democratic North America with a really crappy mayor.
don't get too excited.

How do we get rid of him? he has zero shame, so we know he won't leave and we don't have the legislation to remove him.
we: lobby our candidates, councillors and media to up the level of dialogue leading up to and during the next campaign
we: put all candidates feet to the fire (WE DESERVE AND CAN HAVE GOOD CANDIDATES!). Pants and Smitherman were garbage. they lost the election more than Ford won it in my opinion.
we: propose specific measures (talk to your councillor, your buddy at the newspaper whatever)

a recent idea I've had? get the candidates to say yay or nay to the idea of a bylaw saying the executive council has to represent every corner of Toronto - at least 2 members from each borough.
we could at one point trust that a mayor would try to be inclusionary... no more.

 

[TRA]

[video=youtube;zmRPP2WXX0U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmRPP2WXX0U[/video]

I was young when it happened, but I still remember seeing all of these people gathered together, tearing down the wall that had separated their country and their families. It was so powerful. This 'protest' was heard around the world that day!
Metaphorically speaking, Rob Ford has been building his own wall separating the burbs from downtown. Are we going to let him stand atop it, laughing while it grows longer and taller? Or are we going to tear it down?
People need to actually get off their asses, and show that they care about Toronto, for this city to get back on track.

I love the wall metaphor, newearthling! Thinking carefully about ways to heal the divide (which RoFo did NOT create but has definitely exacerbated)- this forum is great place for creative thinking about how to help create a more cohesive city. How about it? Ideas?

 

[adma]

Apple was very close to naming their current Mac OS X "Maverick." They named it "Mavericks" after the location in California. I also wonder what the Dallas NBA team think of Palin.

Ford Motor Company distanced themselves from the Toronto mayor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Maverick_(Americas)

 

[ahm]

no, no it doesn't.
the true people getting stuff done, educating and changing minds are the journalists, writers, teachers and, a very few, politicians. and they don't like to touch these protests with a ten foot pole because they're chidish and self serving. they are too busy ACTUALLY doing something as opposed to getting their face out there and filling their egos for an afternoon.

protest can be a powerful tool. how it is implemented determines its usefulness. look at, for instance, tea party protests. they have been very effective in galvanizing and mobilizing conservatives who feel the republicans do not represent their values, their interests. news footage of a couple hundred angry people with placards castigating the government showed many people across the united states that this was not merely an online movement, that it was comprised of people just like them. the poor grammar and spelling of the nascent tea party's public materials did not dissuade the many literate people who chose to join.

demonstrations and protests are supposed to be your last resort - you've written letters to politicians, showed up to public meetings, attempted to change or sway policy through all the legal and proper channels, and none of this has worked. getting a mob of people together to demonstrate against policy - essentially showing that there are numbers on your side, that voters are against this idea, that possibly you could physically prevent this policy from being enacted by throwing a cog into the works (like preventing parliament from sitting, for instance) - is a a dangerous but sometimes necessary way of trying to accomplish your goals. it is so threatening to the state that there are laws that set out exactly what limits there are on public gatherings for protest purposes, and provide the armed agents of the state enormous powers to disperse protests.

the successes of anti-globalization movements in the late 90's and in 2000 and 2001 led to many organizers thinking that the quickest way to achieve public policy goals was to try and get bodies in the streets, often without trying to use other, less confrontational methods of change. coupled with the fatigue of organizing against the iraq war, and the severe limitations on public protest by the state post-9/11, protest organizers saw increasingly smaller turnouts and fewer gains for their efforts to get people out and shouting. with non-western protests shifting into mass uprisings like the arab spring, western organizers can almost be forgiven for thinking that all they have to do is get the word out on facebook and twitter to have thousands spontaneously show up to overthrow the bad guys. it doesn't work that way anymore - you need to have longstanding grievances and very clear communities organized around shared identities. toronto, with its disparate diasporic communities, its sprawling geography, its changing demographics, is not in a position to do this yet (and hopefully never will be, eh?).

there are a lot of people who organize and educate and inspire who are not journalists or teachers or politicians. when i worked in student activism up at york, i worked with some of the jane-finch community organizers on shared campaigns (raising the minimum wage, for instance, which at the time was $7.25/hr). a grandmother cooking some halal food for a meeting (j-f organizing taught me to never ever ever let vegans and animal rights activists anywhere near food prep for any kind of campaign because who wants the dumpster dived stew when you can eat amazing spicy chicken and rice?!!) accomplishes more than a thousand pamphlets because when you feed people they are more inclined to hang out with you and listen to what you are saying. that same grandma is also likely to give you an earful about her experience in her youth organizing for change and is also probably surprisingly informed about the issues. she may not have much respect for the punks who smash windows, but she may also be quite sympathetic if they have goals and values aligned with hers. finding that common ground, creating alliances, and making all your voices into a chorus is what accomplishes change. whether that's a coordinated letter writing campaign or a raucous demonstration is neither here nor there when it comes down to it. the failure of protests is due to the lack of preparation, the lack of reaching out to neighbours and potential allies, the refusal to listen to other voices, the insistence that everything must be done immediately and without any critical thought; protest itself is not the problem.

 

[SunriseChampion]

Oddly enough, or perhaps not so oddly, several early instances of defenestration involved town officials -- but in Prague, not Toronto, way back in the 1400s. How upset do people have to be with their local political representatives that they feel compelled to throw them out a window?

I know, my family's Czech. That's why I keep suggesting it.

How upset? About as upset as I am with Ford.


PS: There were defenestrations like crazy in 1848.

 

[newearthling]

did the battle of Seattle change anything?
we shut it down!
so?

what did happen is that the globalization movement is stronger than ever, the police/security budgets and powers have ballooned in response, the lines are drawn, the discourse is destroyed and dumbed down and the "radical left" has made a bogeyman of itself.
the issues became a second thought.


I'm just saying that the same old protests don't work, are actually counter-productive and annoying (!).
let's get beyond the chant and the march. they last seconds. we need to create a debate that lasts generations.
i think a healthy majority of Torontonians would agree with me about that.


i think the silent shaming of him is appropriate for this event (it's not about him - it's about families - don't make it about him). perhaps other ideas could be put to use in other venues.

and, don't get me started about vancouver (!).

The anti globalization movement is huge now. It is so much larger than it was in 1999.

Seattle was the first time for a lot of people in North America to learn about the anti-environmental, anti-community, anti-health, anti-people, globalist, corporate agenda. In that regard, it accomplished A LOT. It didn't start in Seattle, but Seattle is where it gained a toehold into popular culture.

But now , it is happening around the world.

The Arab Spring movement spanned millions of people to take to the streets, protesting in many countries. The Occupy movement educated people about the growing income gap, and about globalization in general. There have been massive protests in Brazil this year. There are current protests in Thailand. Montrealers do Canada proud as a very engaged populace who will confidently exert their right of freedom to assemble over issues important to them.

The freedom to assemble and the freedom of expression are fundamental rights in a democratic society.

If you want more creative ways to assemble, then organize them. But for a lot of people, especially people just waking up and becoming politically engaged, a demonstration is their first introduction to feeling like they are having their voice heard. It is empowering to be in a large group of people.
You may find them annoying because you are 'over it', but not everyone thinks like you. I talked to many people during G20 who had never been to a demonstration before, and who were suddenly turned on politically because of their experience.

And of course these demo's are not going to change anything over night. Cultural shifts take generations. The salt march in India happened many many years ago, but it is still used as inspiration to this day.

The recent First Nations anti-fracking protesters in New Brunswick may not have had so much community support, if there had never been any environmental protests before, or any anti-fracking protests.

It is all on a spectrum. More and more people become more turned on because of the protests. The issue becomes part of mainstream culture. Artists are inspired by those events to make more culture (photos, films, songs, plays, paintings etc.) about it. People start to educate themselves about the issue. The 'people's movement' is growing, even if it seems slow.

All manners of discourse, including chanting, including debate, are desperately needed.

 

[newearthling]

there are a lot of people who organize and educate and inspire who are not journalists or teachers or politicians. when i worked in student activism up at york, i worked with some of the jane-finch community organizers on shared campaigns (raising the minimum wage, for instance, which at the time was $7.25/hr). a grandmother cooking some halal food for a meeting (j-f organizing taught me to never ever ever let vegans and animal rights activists anywhere near food prep for any kind of campaign because who wants the dumpster dived stew when you can eat amazing spicy chicken and rice?!!) accomplishes more than a thousand pamphlets because when you feed people they are more inclined to hang out with you and listen to what you are saying. that same grandma is also likely to give you an earful about her experience in her youth organizing for change and is also probably surprisingly informed about the issues. she may not have much respect for the punks who smash windows, but she may also be quite sympathetic if they have goals and values aligned with hers. finding that common ground, creating alliances, and making all your voices into a chorus is what accomplishes change. whether that's a coordinated letter writing campaign or a raucous demonstration is neither here nor there when it comes down to it. the failure of protests is due to the lack of preparation, the lack of reaching out to neighbours and potential allies, the refusal to listen to other voices, the insistence that everything must be done immediately and without any critical thought; protest itself is not the problem.

Yes I agree with this. All avenues have to be employed, to create societal change. (Well everything except the food choices. Vegan food is yummmmmy and you must have just had bad cooks!)
Protests have their time and place, but they cannot be discounted for how powerful they are.
Creativity is good too. It would be great, for instance to see a flash mob of dancers doing a drunken stupor the next time RoFo gives a public address!
For a large gathering to be powerful, it needs to be built on the foundation of good relationships. Food is an excellent tool in building social justice.
There is a spectrum of organizing, and all non-violent forms of engagement have to be included.

 

[newearthling]

oh, and, one more thing:

this isn't colonial India, East Berlin or Tahrir square. It's an average city in a functional, mature and democratic North America with a really crappy mayor.
don't get too excited.

How do we get rid of him? he has zero shame, so we know he won't leave and we don't have the legislation to remove him.
we: lobby our candidates, councillors and media to up the level of dialogue leading up to and during the next campaign
we: put all candidates feet to the fire (WE DESERVE AND CAN HAVE GOOD CANDIDATES!). Pants and Smitherman were garbage. they lost the election more than Ford won it in my opinion.
we: propose specific measures (talk to your councillor, your buddy at the newspaper whatever)

a recent idea I've had? get the candidates to say yay or nay to the idea of a bylaw saying the executive council has to represent every corner of Toronto - at least 2 members from each borough.
we could at one point trust that a mayor would try to be inclusionary... no more.

I included the history because it seemed like you (and others) were not familiar with how important non violent direct action really can be.
If you want to take those steps, and get involved that way, great. Fantastic idea about the executive committee btw. I will support you however I can.
But I will also support anyone who is involved with demos protests, and other forms of creative non violent resistance.
There is no one right way to affect change on a societal level.

 

[rightwingSUVdriver]

Nobody's defenestrating anyone until the food runs out. Traditionally, it's limited access to food that overthrows governments. True fact. Also, defenestrating Rob Ford would take an army of bodybuilders… the guy is large.

 

[Acrossthewater]

Instead of booing how about singing Christmas carols loudly...and changing a few words to some songs

Rob got run over by a reindeer
walkin' home from our house Christmas eve.
You can say there's no such thing as Santa.
But as for me and Grandpa, we believe.

He'd been drinkin' too much egg nog.
And we'd begged him not to go.
But he'd forgot his medication,
and he staggered out the door into the snow.

Edited to add: I strongly believe in protests. Going to date myself here, but back in the late sixties our high school didn't want to see a teacher we all liked let go. Almost 50% of the students went to the gym and we at there quietly until they gave in and kept him. That was very empowering to me.

 

[cgwalnut]

and, I'll say again: I don't think the usual protests and tactics are working or helpful - they are alienating and hinder progress.
that's all.

 

[OSS 117]

I have to chime in about the "cavalcade of boos" and savetoronto:

don't do it. it's not the place for this sort of thing (a lovely family event) and only turns Ford into the martyr he wants to look like. the middle (which ford has lost already) will look on at this with disgust and maybe they'll start to have some sympathy for, and solidarity with, the guy. it will be written off as the same group of "professional protestors" disrupting yet another event (which, really, is true).

listen, the average person out there hates the circus, and the performers, that is the protesting crowd. it's profoundly annoying. I used to be a part of it and I grew to hate it. the same old chants, speakers, language and theatre. nothing new. it's preaching to the converted and just gives everybody involved a self serving collective adrenalin rush. it accomplishes zero and may actually have a negative effect.

two recent examples of great public protest i think would be a) the silent shaming of the college dean in California after the pepper spraying incident on campus during the occupy times a few years ago and b) city councils turning of their backs on ford just a couple of weeks ago. powerful stuff.

if you feel you must do something (and I understand the need/want/urge) think about a silent shaming. turning of backs, some sort of clothing/colour solidarity - something. something new, creative and respectful. no megaphones, no chants and no damn puppets.

Nobody is talking about megaphones or chants, just booing. I can't think of anyplace Ford wouldn't deserve to be booed.

 

[arksi]

All this talk about protesting in the street and I keep thinking about a couple of anti-Ford videos on YouTube that have gone viral over the past few weeks. One is "Rob Ford: The Movie" and the other is the "Rob Ford Crack Remix." Both have been viewed millions of times. Not bad for things created by individuals rather than large groups.

I think both effectively damage Ford's reputation by cleverly making the case point that he's a liar, an idiot and not someone worthy of being mayor of Toronto. They may not be political with a capital P, but they do a far better job making a case than a bunch of people booing, holding up signs, etc. They're also videos that have been covered by the media. Not that the media coverage was needed. People probably would've seen this stuff with or without the help of newspapers and supper hour news programs. FWIW, this is also stuff that made its way out of online echo chambers such as UT.

I think we now have tools and platforms at our disposal that can enable us to go well beyond the traditional models of protest. You know, the one where you try to get a bunch of people together on the street, hope for the best and then maybe make the evening news for 45 seconds during a heavily edited segment. It's a model that just leads to white noise after awhile.

If you want to help change things then learn how to do things like make a website, edit video, use social media and generate content for the average digital user's attention span. While it's fun to point to Gandhi, the Berlin Wall and Seattle in 1999 as points of inspiration, the place where one can be most effective these days isn't so much on the streets, it's online.