[TheKingEast]

Prove it.

Not one single actual source says this to be true.

I'd like to hear exactly what COULD happen that's not happening due to Ford's refusal. I want to agree with you - I really do. The idea that Ford's ignorance and stubbornness is somehow harming the city and impeding the response plays right into the narrative of how much I despise the man. I've tried to find proof that it's true... but I can't. The facts are the city and province are working together and fully engaged in solving this problem and a declaration of emergency would change nothing.

What are you saying exactly? Did Ford ask for aid and we just haven't seen it yet? Or did he just not ask for aid because it wasn't necessary since in his own words things aren't at that stage to label this "catastrophe" an emergency?

The city and province are working together. However, the city did not ask for help initially because they thought it was not necessary. You're trying to tell me extra resources were not necessary. How in the world can you say that? Have you even experienced this? Have you driven around the hardest hit communities?

I'm not even a Ford "hater". I just think he's handled this poorly.

 

[TheKingEast]

If Ford is able to skate through this one, then we are all to blame. We need to be holding his feet to the flames for letting seniors, kids, and 1/3 of the city (or more?) freeze unnecessarily.
It would be good to use the hydro outage map and poster "Ford made us freeze" or words to that effect, non stop next year.
It is going to take a concerted effort by ALL OF US to get rid of him. We will all need to get out and talk to people. No armchair revolutionaries for this one.

Agreed.

 

[kaboi]

Don't forget the staff at the city Emergency Operations Centre whom advised against declaring an emergency.

Minor quibble. It's true that senior city staff have recently stepped up and said that there is no need to declare a SOE. But Joe Warmington's Sunday column indicates that may be somewhat revisionist:

By the time night fell Sunday, there was mounting pressure on Ford to make the declaration.

“We are getting ready to ask the mayor to declare this an emergency largely because it will assist the staff at the province to make resources available to us — crews, generators, facilities for warming centres,†said Deputy City Manager John Livey.

Mayor Ford declined.

“They tried to get the mayor to hold a 7:30 p.m. news conference to declare an emergency but he flat out said ‘no,’†added an insider.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/22/the-political-battle-behind-the-storm

Norm Kelly indicated his own support for a declaration in interviews Monday morning.

In light of the decision not to declare, I can't help but wonder if Pennachetti's widely shared email from yesterday was largely a politic attempt to mitigate public backlash by showing a supportive, unified front. I don't think it means there was never a time that city staff thought a SOE was appropriate.

 

[kaboi]

But why does one have to "declare a state of emergency" to do the "more" of which you speak. The two aren't linked. Declaring an emergency doesn't magically help anybody or change anything from my understanding.

The lack of "more" might very well be caused by crappy management and a poorly planned response - but it's not because the Mayor didn't "declare a state of emergency". (Although ultimately he's still to blame)

This is an interesting situation. I think an immediate declaration Sunday morning would have been appropriate and might possibly have accelerated the response, such as bringing in outside hydro crews sooner (e.g., Michigan and Manitoba would have called the city and offered to be on the ground by now instead of arriving tomorrow)or facilitating a stronger response (e.g., evacuating vulnerable people and seniors in highrises).

Even if I'm wrong about that, I don't know that you could look at this case as typical of emergency situations. I get the feeling that the premier's response has been about working around Rob Ford. It seems to me that both Norm Kelly and the premier felt it was an emergency from the get go and agreed to forego a declaration, thereby backdooring the usual emergency protocol route. Ironically, this has made a SOE seem unnecessary, but I'm not sure that's really true. Expedient in this case, but I worry that this may muddy the waters in the future. The ability to declare a SOE exists for a reason!

 

[kaboi]

he heart of the matter

What really concerns me is that debate here seems to now be focused on whether this has really been an emergency or not. I think that's the wrong issue. For me what matters is that Ford didn't make a declaration for one (or both) of the following two reasons:

1. he would have lost his authority and he couldn't abide that
3. he doesn't have the faintest clue of what actually happens when an emergency is declared

For those who don't know, Ford told Joe Warmington on Sunday that a SOE would shut the city down - and specifically that the TTC would have to stop running, stores would have to close, and the Kanye West concert would have to be cancelled.

(Btw, I would have quoted this directly from Joe's column, but it's been conveniently, alarmingly scrubbed from the article since it was first published. How's that for honest, conscientious reporting of the facts?)

 

[PinkLucy]

Ford was on TV tonight saying that no one could have anticipated the freezing rain. Funny that, because it was in all the weather reports

 

[adma]

Remember, folks: let's be even-steven. If Ford's so-called mishandling of the ice storm emergency situation has been blown out of proportion, then so was Miller's so-called mishandling of the garbage strike emergency situation.

Relative matters of degree are open to judgment, of course.

 

[EagleEye]

I hope the residents of Scarborough keep this in mind.

None of my friends like him. Two of my family members voted for him but said they wouldn't again.

Absolutely. I would have a little more tolerance if something unexpected and unpredictable happened suddenly. But that's certainly not what happened with this storm.

By the way - Amin Massoudi disagrees with that narrative. So I guess we can either believe HIM or Robyn Doolittle's sources. I know where my money is.

It wasn't just Doolittle, Daniel Dale said 3 sources told him the same thing and Katie Simpson said the same. Also, when asked on CP24, Ford said he didn't know where he was yesterday morning, referring to that morning. Then he made a comment about going out early with his driver, 8 or 9 (that's early?) and brushed over the question.

How exactly do you know that? I have three friends staying with me in a two bedroom apartment so there are five of us. Think before you press the button.

As for Ford he scares me on a whole new level now. He is completely incompetent, proven once again, and must be held accountable for this. Relief crews being brought in yesterday afternoon from out of Province and out of Country? Why wasn't that happening Sunday morning or early afternoon when the full scope of this disaster was apparent?

People here have been AMAZING! I'm a pet sitter and had no power till 2 hours ago. So many of my clients offered to have me stay over, some that were away, others that only could offer a couch. My client whose house I'm staying at overnight told me I could invite whoever needed to get in from out of the cold, people she doesn't know. I've worked 12 hour days today and yesterday because I had regular pet sitting and some that was unscheduled due to the storm and everyone has been so great at staying in touch. People have been great at taking their turns at stop lights that weren't working. No temper tantrums were seen anywhere.

 

[GeekGirl]

None of my friends like him. Two of my family members voted for him but said they wouldn't again.



It wasn't just Doolittle, Daniel Dale said 3 sources told him the same thing and Katie Simpson said the same. Also, when asked on CP24, Ford said he didn't know where he was yesterday morning, referring to that morning. Then he made a comment about going out early with his driver, 8 or 9 (that's early?) and brushed over the question.



People here have been AMAZING! I'm a pet sitter and had no power till 2 hours ago. So many of my clients offered to have me stay over, some that were away, others that only could offer a couch. My client whose house I'm staying at overnight told me I could invite whoever needed to get in from out of the cold, people she doesn't know. I've worked 12 hour days today and yesterday because I had regular pet sitting and some that was unscheduled due to the storm and everyone has been so great at staying in touch. People have been great at taking their turns at stop lights that weren't working. No temper tantrums were seen anywhere.

Someone is a position of authority should be tasked with going door-to-door in areas where there has been no power since 3am, when the power went out. There are so many people living alone, too old or too frail, some with no family here and with small kids and babies. I've heard the warming stations are too full as well. Why are the churches and community centres with heat not stepping up, or are they and we just haven't heard about it? What about the homeless people, are there enough shelter beds, especially in the east end, where things seem the worse? Why is Ford, the 'defender of the poor' not saying or doing squat for those he pretends to care about? We have no idea how many people are too alone, too ill or too money poor to get any assistance whatsoever.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

Ford was on TV tonight saying that no one could have anticipated the freezing rain. Funny that, because it was in all the weather reports

absolutely. my dad was fuming since the Thursday over a family get-together planned for Saturday night -- even though it's less than 7 km to travel (though one has to face uphills when going back to Eglinton from downtown -- so it could be icy). We kept watching out the window, but the temperature stayed well above zero so it was all just rain. We left by 11 pm so we were all home before the temperature dropped and the trouble started.

It just seemed like the city operated under delusional wishful thinking. It's not just about how it was handled from Sunday morning onwards; a lot of things could have been done or put in place beforehand.

 

[Kat_YYZ]

By the way, happy holidays to everyone here

 

[LordWanker]

It just seemed like the city operated under delusional wishful thinking. It's not just about how it was handled from Sunday morning onwards; a lot of things could have been done or put in place beforehand.

Yet how many times were intense weather conditions predicted and nothing ever happened? The true response now will be whether or not Toronto has learned anything from this situation. Sadly I suspect the answer will be it was a one-timer and it will not re-occur in the immediate near future ( translation: do not want to spend the money needed to deal with a 'rare' occurrence)

 

[basic]

From what I can tell, once Ford came to on Sunday morning and then dawdled the whole day before refusing to declare an SOE, Wynne and Kelly banded together with the various other players to get all of the support that an SOE would initiate. So the help came, but it came late, and in spite of Ford.

One would have to think that Ford loses more support than he gains when the dust settles on this.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I don't know, the two situations are completely different. The Falklands demanded a strong solution and Thatcher dealt with it- it was clearly a situation where she was forced to act or have the UK lose face.

I would say the situation is more akin to the floods in Calgary. While in Calgary, Nenshi acted quickly, we've been dealing with a lack of leadership from Ford.

My point was that Thatcher was looking a likely defeat in the 1982/3 election and subsequent ouster by internal party rivals, when Galtieri stole the union jack... A good Pink Floyd reference there.

 

[Admiral Beez]

By the way, happy holidays to everyone here

Thanks. Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it!