[unimaginative2]

That's not what Ford has Scarborough believing. They believe that they're going to get a subway stretching deep into Malvern, and the only thing needed to make the subways magically appear was to have Ford tap his heels and say subways three times.

That's just not true. The vast majority of people in Scarborough know exactly where the subway is planned to go: Scarborough Town Centre, which is the hub of bus routes in Scarborough and by far the biggest destination. It may be difficult for downtowners looking at a map to believe, but most people in Scarborough have no burning desire for rapid transit or light rail transit out to the woods at Sheppard and Meadowvale.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

That's just not true. The vast majority of people in Scarborough know exactly where the subway is planned to go: Scarborough Town Centre, which is the hub of bus routes in Scarborough and by far the biggest destination. It may be difficult for downtowners looking at a map to believe, but most people in Scarborough have no burning desire for rapid transit or light rail transit out to the woods at Sheppard and Meadowvale.

OK, enlighten me. The 'subway' that Ford was thumping the tub for was from Laird Drive to Kennedy. When does it get to STC?

The subway he said he'd build with private money was to go from Sheppard to STC, but he didn't find the money in the couch, after all. So, given that Mr. Ford is all for not wasting public money, he then canceled his proposal. Oh no, he didn't, did he? He then said, I'll threaten the Feds and they'll give me the cash 'cause I can cause them harm. Because that's not tax money, it's federal money.

 

[cdr108]

That's just not true. The vast majority of people in Scarborough know exactly where the subway is planned to go: Scarborough Town Centre, which is the hub of bus routes in Scarborough and by far the biggest destination. It may be difficult for downtowners looking at a map to believe, but most people in Scarborough have no burning desire for rapid transit or light rail transit out to the woods at Sheppard and Meadowvale.

i've been to the public meetings in scarborough and i disagree with your assessment that they know where it's going, or that they don't want transit extended to meadowvale. they certainly don't want it to stop at STC and not service malvern and surrounding areas.

OK, enlighten me. The 'subway' that Ford was thumping the tub for was from Laird Drive to Kennedy. When does it get to STC?

The subway he said he'd build with private money was to go from Sheppard to STC, but he didn't find the money in the couch, after all. So, given that Mr. Ford is all for not wasting public money, he then canceled his proposal. Oh no, he didn't, did he? He then said, I'll threaten the Feds and they'll give me the cash 'cause I can cause them harm. Because that's not tax money, it's federal money.

we're talking about the sheppard lrt or subway debate.

RFs subway plan goes to kennedy and then loops to STC and ends there.
the LRT extends along sheppard from Don mills to meadowvale, with a proposal to extend the SRT from STC to markham rd/sheppard.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

- 2010’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY (or Phase 2 LRT). We needed the money to provide a DRL subway line for the downtown. I hope you don’t mind the transferring at Pape and then again at Union to help out the users on the Yonge line.

Where are you going that you need to transfer at Pape and then Union? If you're going, say, to your office in Yorkville or to the UT campus, I will not force you to take the DRL down to Union and then back up University to Museum. I will be magnanimous and say, "lo, you may stay on this subway, and go to St. George. No need to thank me."

20 years from now, assuming a DRL actually gets built, your average Scarberian will be able to take the Crosstown LRT if they're going to somewhere close to Eglinton, the Sheppard LRT if they're going to NYCC (or live north of the 401), or the Bloor-Danforth subway, going to Bloor if they're going to midtown, or changing at Pape to go to Union if they're headed downtown.

That'll be the most connected by transit that a suburb could ever be, or expect to ever be. But, luckily, there will be plenty of chances to complain about delays and construction in-between.

 

[js97]

I can just see an article in the Mirror

- 1980’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY. We need to try out this new technology. I hope you don’t mind the transfer at Kennedy.

- 1990’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY. We ran out of money at the edge of North York. I hope you don’t mind the transfer at Don Mills.

- 2000’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY. We needed the money for Vaughan.

Which will be the next headline?

- 2010’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY (or Phase 2 LRT). We needed the money to provide a subway line for Richmond Hill. I hope you don’t mind the crowds at the transfer to the Yonge line.

- 2010’s: Sorry Scarborough – NO SUBWAY (or Phase 2 LRT). We needed the money to provide a DRL subway line for the downtown. I hope you don’t mind the transferring at Pape and then again at Union to help out the users on the Yonge line.

Oh the irony. I'm not sure if you're being facecious, but that is quite the factual representation of Scarborough's Rapid Transit line History.

js97 is a frequent reader/contributor of UT, and look at the level of discussion needed to attempt to make him understand. Selling the DRL to suburban Toronto is going to be a massively uphill battle...

That's the big problem on the flip side. DRL supporters think suburbia residents don't understand the need/concept of a DRL, but they do.

To put it in simple terms:
WHos' benefiting from the DRL?
Who's paying for it?
yes, same can be said for the suburbia lines, but if we look at the history, other lines have continually been a priority over DRL, so why not this time again?
And if you're a true proponent of a DRL, why not propose to have it begin in Scarborough or Etobicoke first. Yes it's going to add capacity to the Yonge line, but so did the Richmond hill and Vaughan extensions, but our government still prioritized those ahead of the DRL.

And let's not forget who contributes more to Toronto's traffic jams: Suburbia drivers. If you give them a viable option, more of them would get out of their cars.

Assuming 'downtown' desification is only a result of rapid transit (or lack of) Shepperd along the subway has been 'densifying' at every subway station. If you build it, densification will come.


And this coming from someone that spent decades in Toronto proper, with a 5 year stint in the burbs, and now back downtown in the last 5 years. It's too myopic downtown centrix to think the DRL is needed more than an extension to the burbs. I think some of you need to work or live in the inner burbs and realise how horrific the transit is. At least if you're in the core and travel within it, you're geographically closer to all your ammenities than someone that lives in the burbs.

 

[Automation Gallery]

The key to the poll is the following:



Rob Ford would win in a 3-way race. In other words, if the opposition is split. The opposition has to settle on 1 candidate, and only 1.

That will never happen...there will be an NDPer and there will be a center-left Liberal...and sorry folks, yes there will be Rob Ford

 

[jje1000]

That's just not true. The vast majority of people in Scarborough know exactly where the subway is planned to go: Scarborough Town Centre, which is the hub of bus routes in Scarborough and by far the biggest destination. It may be difficult for downtowners looking at a map to believe, but most people in Scarborough have no burning desire for rapid transit or light rail transit out to the woods at Sheppard and Meadowvale.

I obviously was making an exaggeration, but the point still stands- Ford promised them a subway in Scarborough when in reality, the extension that could have been afforded barely scratched the surface. And they still believe that he can do it.

 

[js97]

20 years from now, assuming a DRL actually gets built, your average Scarberian will be able to take the Crosstown LRT if they're going to somewhere close to Eglinton,
.

That's quite the disconnect. Most of scarborough does not live near the propsoed Eglinton Crosstown line. You're definitely going to find substantially more residents along Shepperd Ave. A quick 'drive' est of Laird on Eglinton would confirm that it's mostly parks and strip malls all the way to Birchmount.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

js97:

Assuming 'downtown' desification is only a result of rapid transit (or lack of) Shepperd along the subway has been 'densifying' at every subway station. If you build it, densification will come.

Downtown is densifying precisely because it is dense and central. It's a locational advantage that's true for cities with a healthy core.

And this coming from someone that spent decades in Toronto proper, with a 5 year stint in the burbs, and now back downtown in the last 5 years. It's too myopic downtown centrix to think the DRL is needed more than an extension to the burbs. I think some of you need to work or live in the inner burbs and realise how horrific the transit is. At least if you're in the core and travel within it, you're geographically closer to all your ammenities than someone that lives in the burbs.

Except that the Yonge line is used by riders from the suburbs - and they are using it to get to downtown, which is why the line is super congested. You made it sound as if one is building the DRL because those who are downtown need it to get to somewhere nearby.

AoD

 

[js97]

I obviously was making an exaggeration, but the point still stands- Ford promised them a subway in Scarborough when in reality, the extension that could have been afforded barely scratched the surface. And they still believe that he can do it.

The problem is that Ford is the only one sincerely championing a subway in Scarborough, and an extension to VP is actually quite substantial in terms of avoiding the gridlock around Donmills/DVP. The Alternative Mayors think LRT (constrainted to StreetCar specs) is 'good' enough for them. If you where in Scarborough, who would you vote for?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

The problem is that Ford is the only one sincerely championing a subway in Scarborough, and an extension to VP is actually quite substantial in terms of avoiding the gridlock around Donmills/DVP. The Alternative Mayors think LRT (constrainted to StreetCar specs) is 'good' enough for them. If you where in Scarborough, who would you vote for?

Going to the border of Scarborough and North York still does not solve at lot of problems. Transit city is no different from the LA Light Rail.

 

[car4041]

WHos' benefiting from the DRL?

I get the feeling you think the answer to this question is "downtowners", but it's not. The DRL will benefit anyone who travels down the Yonge line, e.g. passengers from North Toronto, North York, Richmond Hill, and Scarborough. It's a line that allows people to get downtown.

And if you're a true proponent of a DRL, why not propose to have it begin in Scarborough or Etobicoke first. Yes it's going to add capacity to the Yonge line, but so did the Richmond hill and Vaughan extensions, but our government still prioritized those ahead of the DRL.

The purpose of the DRL is to relieve the Yonge line. Building a disconnected segment out in Scarborough will not serve that purpose, and building something that funnels more people onto the Yonge line will do exactly the opposite. I really don't think you understand the idea behind the DRL at all.

 

[cdr108]

The problem is that Ford is the only one sincerely championing a subway in Scarborough, and an extension to VP is actually quite substantial in terms of avoiding the gridlock around Donmills/DVP. The Alternative Mayors think LRT (constrainted to StreetCar specs) is 'good' enough for them. If you where in Scarborough, who would you vote for?

the LRT would also service VP and be underground from don mills to consumers rd.
no one thinks LRTs are 'good enough' for scarb but there are major concerns with building a subway ... finances and ridership.
i could make a case for ridership, but the LRT could still handle the volume.
where is the money going to come from?
if RF's fantasy of private companies funding it had happened, which incidentally, none of the developers in the private meeting he had with them, were willing or wanted to pay for the subway; or RF had the balls to accept that the taxpayers have to pony up the money, then we don't be debating this endlessly.

the proposed subway to JUST STC is already 4x the cost of the LRT to meadowvale.
to build the subway to meadowvale would likely cost 8-10x the LRT for the same distance.

even gordon chong's report of all possible fees/tolls/tax increases, etc OVER 50 years still comes short by $1 Billion for that short subway extension.
do you propose we fund the subway to meadowvale for the next 100+ years?

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

That's quite the disconnect. Most of scarborough does not live near the propsoed Eglinton Crosstown line. You're definitely going to find substantially more residents along Shepperd Ave. A quick 'drive' est of Laird on Eglinton would confirm that it's mostly parks and strip malls all the way to Birchmount.

The paragraph you snipped quite clearly pointed out the four major improvements in Scarborough transit that would be constructed if all the Scarberians hoping for a ghost subway line to a mall would shut up and allow them to be built.

 

[js97]

I get the feeling you think the answer to this question is "downtowners", but it's not. The DRL will benefit anyone who travels down the Yonge line, e.g. passengers from North Toronto, North York, Richmond Hill, and Scarborough. It's a line that allows people to get downtown.

Again, this is the disconnect (and it's alwasy interesting to see the perspectives) The Yonge line that 'allows' people to get downtown already exists. Yes the DRL would relieve congestion AFTER the Bloor line interchange, but from someone that lives in the burbs, it's only a very SMALL portion of their commute (Bloor to Queen/King/Union?) Where as if you build Eglinton/Shepperd, you are providing them a superior alternative for a much larger portion of their commute that is probably the most aggravating. It's stretching it to say a DRL services suburbian instead of downtowners.