kaboi
Active Member
The reason we have "toothless laws" for politicians is because they were put in place by....politicians.
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- Thread starter MetroMan
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The reason we have "toothless laws" for politicians is because they were put in place by....politicians.
nfitz
Superstar
He's clearly not doing well if I haven't heard of him. It's no like I ignore politics.
Simcoe-Grey? More like Simcoe-Bald.
Racquette
Active Member
Seems as though he's held a few cabinet posts under Mike Harris and Ernie Eves. Must not have 'made waves'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wilson_(Canadian_politician)
casita
Senior Member
Rob is only our third elected mayor. No problems with his two predecessors.
Cooper
Senior Member
FWIW. I don't think Kat is a Ford apologist at all. I think Kat's posts are an antidote to the occasional knee-jerk worst-case speculation that pops up around here from time to time. There's a difference between being an apologist and being reasonable and fair-minded, IMO.
Kat's Meow
Active Member
The answer to the disability question is somewhat complicated.
You can not go on long term without first serving the short term period, which for the city is 3 months I think. You have to still be an active member to apply for, and get long term disability. There is also typically a provision of 2 years own occupation disability after which period one must be disabled from performing ANY occupation. "Any Occ" policies are very rare. If short term disability is 3 months, that means long term disability only kicks in in early December. If he is no longer a member of council then he is not active and can't receive disability. Unless there is a specific provision for a situation like this where the plan member goes on disability during election time, he'd have to run to maintain continuity of benefits.
Alternatively, if the benefit plan may be written such that if you are already on short term, regardless of election you can apply for long term but I doubt that.
Rob is also eligible for severance of a year, during which period benefits continue, although typically disability benefits cease after the statutory notice period, which in his case would be 8 weeks.
ETA: I see the eligibility for long term is 6 months of continuous disability so if not reelected, definitely would not be an active member. It's also important to note that when one is on disability, one does not works as MINO purports to.
All this to say that there are many variables and without reading all the plans to understand what all those variables are, it would be hard to say with certainty.
Given how well thought out many rules and regs are relative to elected officials, I would not be at all surprised if an election time disability and how that's handled was not anticipated and provided for.
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Racquette
Active Member
Good 'food for thought' here - thanks. Good point, that to remain a democracy, there needs to be citizen involvement - a government policing itself, for example, makes no sense. And if an independent authority is established to 'watchdog' government, how to keep them independent...or accountable to 'we the people'? Social media tools, social awareness campaigns, court of public opinion - yes, all useful and necessary. And thank goodness for them, when no enforcement seemed to be available and no mainstream media voices interested.
Yet I still think the actual system for enforcement has been shown to need reform. Some better mechanism for concerned citizens to bring obvious breaches of regulation to a reckoning, is needed. Legal aid, understood - but the whole stigma surrounding 'going to court' would scare off many - as would the time (and time off work) needed, to see it through. Would have deterred me, I readily admit - my employer wouldn't have liked either thing, nor my family - and I'm not from any group that has cause to be particularly fearful of the institution. Plus, like many, I like to keep my political opinions private. Bringing an action in court against a figure like Rob Ford does not allow one to preserve anonymity and does expose one to media censure.
The ability to make some kind of complaint that would require public answer/explanation, or investigation by some sort of watchdog who could then bring legal action as necessary (I'm thinking aloud here, and obviously there are questions of how to keep any such group independent and accountable to the public) - just seems to me it would at least prevent a politician like Rob Ford from publicly thumbing his nose at the regulations and daring those who complained to do something about it.
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MetroMan
Senior Member
To those who are afraid of a 2018 Ford comeback, some perspective:
Given the context, winning by 64,000 votes is pretty decisive. Doug Ford really had no chance.
It looked close because many of those who wanted the Fords out split between two candidates. If you think about it, the anti-Ford vote won by 293,000, a gap larger than Smitherman's entire 2010 vote. The left candidate more than double her support over her 2010 predecessor. Despite the turnout being 20% higher this year, Ford Nation received 50,000 fewer votes in this election. It's clear that the larger turnout went towards anti-Ford candidates.
Of course, the left will be presenting a candidate in 2018 and we might continue to have these three way races until Ford Nation is done with but I think we're safe from the Fords while John Tory is the incumbent and after that when ranked ballots finish divisive candidates like the Fords for a good long time, if not forever.
Given the context, winning by 64,000 votes is pretty decisive. Doug Ford really had no chance.
It looked close because many of those who wanted the Fords out split between two candidates. If you think about it, the anti-Ford vote won by 293,000, a gap larger than Smitherman's entire 2010 vote. The left candidate more than double her support over her 2010 predecessor. Despite the turnout being 20% higher this year, Ford Nation received 50,000 fewer votes in this election. It's clear that the larger turnout went towards anti-Ford candidates.
Of course, the left will be presenting a candidate in 2018 and we might continue to have these three way races until Ford Nation is done with but I think we're safe from the Fords while John Tory is the incumbent and after that when ranked ballots finish divisive candidates like the Fords for a good long time, if not forever.
JWBF
Senior Member
We have the tools for that reform, or rather we have the tools of that reform, we just have to use them, but it takes a effort to take responcibility.
We held Robbie accountable for his actions, but we didn't use the "rules". It took longer, but it was done, there was no way Robbie was going to be mayor for 4 more years. We did even though we didn't have a tool like "recall", which in my opinion we do need. Politicians like Harper or corporations like Microsoft seek to control all information, this is the rush to transparency but there are no proper policies to do so, as you have hit it on the head, politicians policing politicians. We have to take it out of their (or in the case of provincial and federal governments, parties) hands. Non-allied civilian involvement and total transparency are are best tools we have at the moment to improve the system we have; remember, it is easier for evolution to change of the system, it may take longer but it is more stable. The RFMG/DFMG protest did damage, especially to the Fords egos if nothing else. Diane's and Stephanie's reactions to the protests will attest to that.
casita
Senior Member
Nice to see you back, MetroMan.
How do you explain that the Ford's only dropped 50,000 votes from what they got four years ago?
I was never on LTD, but after 36+ full-time years there, I have a fair understanding of how it works. I know plenty of guys who were on it. Some still are.
What I have never understood is how any of the rules we had to live by apply to the MINO.
"What could happen to his job if Toronto Mayor Rob Ford were a ‘regular city employee’?"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...were-a-regular-city-employee/article15413421/
"In his Law of Work blog, Prof. Doorey says it’s a virtual certainty that the mayor, as a “regular city employee,” would have been tossed from his job."
"...we hold politicians to a much lower standard of accountability for their conduct than we do a Wal-Mart cashier or McDonald’s burger flipper.”
I must admit I am impressed that guys like Rob, Doug and Mikey can get in - and stay in.
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Scarberian
Active Member
Bullseye. The current system sounds ok on paper. In reality, pfft.
Remember Rob showing up during advanced polls, claiming he's just helping folks like a good boyscout mayor. Rob ignoring an election worker's request for the MINO to leave? Esprit de corp and rousing feelings of democratic solidarity aside, hitting twitter or posting on a forum is not my idea of enforcement. If doing those things leads to an offender getting their tucchus bounced for flagrant shenanigans that's one thing. But Rob should've gotten automatically disqualified the minute he did it again if witnessed by an election worker(s), documented proof, especially after the (oh noes!) the sternly worded warning letter he received. If it needs a private citizen to even begin the process, the system really is nucking futz.
Rob's mayoralty need not be a complete failure. He showed that a public servant still need to talk to voters on a one on one level, and to remember they serve the public, not the other way around. Imagine if someone actually means that and backs it up with deeds! And Rob showed that many of the laws in place are laughably inadequate in the presence of a forceful enough bully in power who has no shame, or conscience. If the laws are enforced, changed and improved because of that, well maybe we can thank Rob's misdeeds for that result. What I'm saying is, TO should really thank Rob for being it's greatest mayor, ever, 110%.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
No city in this country has the tools; that's an artifact of 1867 intruding on current reality.
The fact is, cities have no power that a province hasn't specifically given them and Toronto is the most powerful city in the country. Oh, it's still not remotely as powerful as, say, Prince Edward Island, but relatively it's pretty good. If it wants, it can create its own planning appeal body and a politician with cojones can implement taxes that are illegal everywhere else.
But one of the key things Rob Ford exposed is how weak the oversight legislation is.
The conflict of interest legislation is provincial and it's up to a citizen to bring a complaint.
The campaign financing legislation? Ditto. It's not like there's some provincial or municipal auditor keeping an eye on this stuff.
It's indisputable Rob Ford broke the law showing up at polling stations but it doesn't matter. If there is any kind of comeuppance, it will be a long way down the road because this stuff is just not enforced.
If Toronto wants ranked ballots, that has to go through the province too.
I guess my overall point is that pretty much all these issues come down to deeply ingrained systemic issues because our country's constitution didn't imagine an urban future.
Part of the answer is that turnout was, what, 20% higher? That's not to say I'm not stunned, shocked and upset that somehow 300,000 people in this city think Doug Ford should be allowed anywhere near city hall but, looking at MM's analysis, you have to balance the % numbers and the actual numbers. I'm also disappointed that Tory got only 40% - I'd feel the same no matter who won - but that's why we need ranked ballots.
YPQ
Active Member
There is an interesting back & forth happening on Twitter between Warren Kinsella (@kinsellawarren) and Joe Warmington (@joe_warmington) where basically Joe says Karen Stintz claimed she was offered $30k in exchange for her dropping out of the race before the deadline.
I've had a long day, my mind hurts & I'm going to bed so I'll leave this here for the scrutiny of the commentariat.
I've had a long day, my mind hurts & I'm going to bed so I'll leave this here for the scrutiny of the commentariat.
casita
Senior Member
Torontovibe
Senior Member
I thought Doug loved Toronto and thought it was the greatest city in the world? Why would he want to leave the greatest city in the world? (especially when his little bro might need him most)
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