[W. K. Lis]

Steve Munro has made a more suitable reply to Missy's anti-streetcar comment in his blog at http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4537#comments.

Steve: Nostalgia has little to do with it. Yes, I like streetcars, I admit it, but I liked the older ones better than the newer ones, probably because that’s what I grew up with. My interest is much more in seeing the streetcar system operated with vehicles that actually work reliably, with enough service on the street so that riders can actually get on, with reliable headways rather than the litany of excuses about how it is impossible to run transit service in mixed traffic, with a technology that once carried far more riders than it does today, and which has the capacity to rise to the challenge of increased population density in our city. (I could go on, but regular readers here have heard this rant before.)

The new design for Roncesvalles was the product of much community consultation, far more than for typical city projects. The widened sidewalks are intended to make the streetcars more accessible while leaving room for parking between the stop zones. Speaking of stops, the number of stops on Roncesvalles will be less than today with the result that fewer places will be blocked for transit operations (bus or streetcar).

The construction last year on Ronces had nothing to do with the streetcars, but was required to replace a 100-year old watermain, the original service from the era when this neighbourhood changed from rural to the outskirts of a growing city. This year’s street reconstruction, annoying though it may be, has actually gone very quickly for a project of this size. It would have finished much sooner, but the startup was delayed about three months thanks to the civic workers’ strike last year — the folks who prepare the designs for contracts were on strike, and then there was both a backlog and an overload of work thanks to the provincial and federal stimulus funding.

The idea that buses will pull out of the way of cars at stops is quaint on two counts. First, it is quite typical for buses to stop at an angle to the curb because cars and vans are parked so close to intersections that there isn’t enough room for the bus to properly swerve into the curb lane. Among other effects, this blocks following traffic and makes leaving by the centre door a challenge for anyone who cannot easily handle very high steps. People with mobility problems then use the front doors by choice, and this slows loading and increases stop service times. Second, the number of buses will almost certainly be greater than the streetcars they replace, and so traffic will be blocked more often by them stopping.

I love the idea that we need special provision for women who seem incapable by your measure of parking properly. Maybe we should just ban them from the streets everywhere to speed up traffic since there are far more of them than streetcars.

Shops on Ronces get some, but certainly not all, of their traffic from those who drive and park. This is a local shopping area like many others in the city. I have walked and TTC’d up and down the street many times, and don’t see a lot of turnover at the parking spaces. People are walking to the stores, and that’s the backbone of the trade. Even if both sides had parking allowed all day, this could not begin to provide enough space for customers to sustain all of these shops.

As for Councillor Perks, well, he got over 50% of the vote in the recent election, and so he must be doing something right.

Rob Ford is Mayor-elect, not Dictator, and there are many other issues about keeping streetcars that will bear on any decision to retain or eliminate them.

 

[reaperexpress]

Steve Munro has made a more suitable reply to Missy's anti-streetcar comment in his blog at http://stevemunro.ca/?p=4537#comments.

Unfortunately he didn't address Missy's delusions about Roncesvalles becoming "one way" or "car free" because of the inability to make a U turn. By that logic expressways are car-free as well.

 

[doady]

Great post. I just felt it was my duty to point out that the 504 is not the busiest surface transit route in North America, or even Canada for that matter.

I think that the busiest is Calgary C-Train line 201, but I can't find statistics for it. However, the LACMTA Blue line (82,840/day) and Edmonton LRT (74,440/day) both have higher ridership than the 504 King (56,700/day).

The M15 bus in New York City also carries 57,000 riders per weekday. The B46 bus has even more than that apparently.

 

[dob467]

Sometimes it's not even worth replying to an argument. Especially one without any facts.

 

[Maggie]

I noticed driving north that the power lines for the streetcars were up today Huraaaaah .....

 

[DSC]

I noticed driving north that the power lines for the streetcars were up today Huraaaaah .....

The TTC says they are returning December 19 so this is certainly a good sign it's on target. The track is all done and, apart from the lack of power (!), the only reason the streetcars are not back now is that the contractors are taking up space working on the road and the sidewalks.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The Toronto Sun, of Sunday, November 28th, has an article on the bumpy road of two street projects took, Bloor Street and Roncesvalles. Click on this link for the complete article. Since this thread is about Roncesvalles, I've copied and pasted just the Roncesvalles part.

If Bloor St. is Toronto’s Mink Mile, Roncesvalles is the Kolbassa Kilometre, a lively stretch of retail shops rapidly morphing from Polish butchers and bakers into coffee, sushi and bookshops.

Those changes, though, have been on hold for the past 18 months as the street underwent a gruelling, two-phase ordeal of reconstructive surgery.

First came the liposuction — in 2009 workers dug out Roncesvalles from Queen St. to Dundas Ave. and replaced the entire water and sewer main system — pipes in some places 120 years old.

Then came the tummy tuck and nose job, with new streetcar tracks for the 504 King car, the busiest line in the city, wider sidewalks and bump-outs to bring commuters to the streetcar door without stepping into traffic.

“The new Roncesvalles, I think, is going to be one of the most attractive village-type streets anywhere in the city,†local councillor Gord Perks says.

“The results are stunning. It’s a very novel concept but we’ve managed to have the business improvement area buy in, the cycling community buy in, the transit community buy in, the residents’ associations buy in. But we got there with blood, sweat and tears.â€

The bandages aren’t yet off — workers have finished most of the east sidewalks but not all and still have most of the west sidewalks to finish.

But Perks says the street should be wide open by Dec. 3 or 4, in time for the Christmas shopping season, with streetcar service returning later in the month.

Gord MacMillan, the city’s director of planning and design, says the contractors have until the end of December to finish all the work and are on schedule and within the $9.2 million budget.

Not everyone is convinced the work will be done — or pleased with the results, though.

Elizabeth Klodas has run Granowska’s, the legendary bakery and pastry shop at the corner of Roncesvalles and Fern Ave., for 36 years but is worried about her future on the street.

“I hope I don’t have to close,†she says. “I hope. I used to have four girls behind the counter. Now there’s one with nothing to do. This is really bad.â€

The sidewalk outside her shop has yet to be torn up and she expects business to shrivel once it does, and she simply doesn’t believe the work is anywhere near finished.

Klodas feels she’s had no input into the changes and is unhappy street parking will be reduced for the bump-outs and wider sidewalks.

“For whom is this?†she asks. “This is not helping the cars to come here.

“Beautifying the street? You know what — we need to put bread into mouths, not beauty.â€

It’s believed nine businesses have closed their doors on Roncy since the construction began, although not all those closures can be blamed on the dusty mess the street has been in for much of that time.

John Ruttan, who runs Cherry Bomb on the southern end of the strip, says he’s been pleasantly surprised at how his coffee shop has weathered the construction storm.

“I really thought it was going to be worse,†Ruttan says, above the whoosh of another latte being foamed on a busy weekday morning.

“I thought my sales were going to drop in half but in fact, we’ve been fine.

“I know everyone else can’t say that.â€

Ruttan opened Cherry Bomb six years ago but he knew even then plans were in the works for the street’s makeover.

“Before they started this, the sidewalks were in horrible shape, the road was in terrible shape,†he says.

“Driving up it, it was like a corduroy road. All the services and the sewers needed to be done. It all had to be done.â€

This past summer was the worst for business, says Joe Angellotti, owner at Lit Espresso Bar.

“That was our worst time, between July and August, when you couldn’t even cross the street,†he says.

Crews just ripped up the concrete outside his door this week — with an instant effect on walk-up business — but Angellotti says he’s been impressed with the speed it’s being replaced.

“It’s just been a long time, but in the end I think it’s going to be a better looking neighbourhood,†he says.

“It can only benefit us in the end.

“Once people hear ‘Roncesvalles is done, it looks beautiful,’ I’m sure they’ll want to come down and check it out.â€

Besides the bike-ramped streetcar bump-outs, the new Roncy will feature soil trenches for bigger and better trees, new flower treatments and even some rubberized sidewalk around one of the city’s largest existing street trees, replacing constantly buckling concrete.

“There are complaints. For anyone who has ever lived through major renovation in your home, it sucks,†Perks says, echoing the “Construction Sucks†signs businesses up and down the street have posted in their windows.

“It’s a damn nuisance and it’s always worse than you think it’s going to be.â€

But the crumbling street — and the ancient infrastructure unr it — had to be dealt with sooner or later, he says.

“There would have been tremendous property damage if there had been a catastrophic failure,†Perks says.

“So we dodged a bullet and did it in a rational and carefully planned way.â€

 

[StIdes]

Like I stated earlier and this article confirms it ^^ business owners are not happy about these stupid bump outs. The only people Ive ever heard actually like them are some bleeding hearts on this forum. And lol at these bike ramps in the bump outs. I can see some biker pedistrian collisions for sure. What morons okay this crap?

 

[junctionist]

Like I stated earlier and this article confirms it ^^ business owners are not happy about these stupid bump outs. The only people Ive ever heard actually like them are some bleeding hearts on this forum. And lol at these bike ramps in the bump outs. I can see some biker pedistrian collisions for sure. What morons okay this crap?

I guess the pedestrians will just have to use their eyes, just like they do now. It's hard for people to say whether or not they like them if they haven't had a chance to use them yet.

 

[nfitz]

Like I stated earlier and this article confirms it ^^ business owners are not happy about these stupid bump outs.

This article says nothing of the sort. Of the 3 business owners interviewed, only one was negative ... one reported no impact, and the final one did report impact but was very positive.

What morons okay this crap?

Perhaps the same morons who made sure the "all the work and are on schedule and within budget".

One might also ask what morons would complain about such a successful construction project?

I don't know if the bump-outs will work or not ... but there isn't anything in this article that suggests that it wouldn't work. The article only proves the construction itself has gone quite well.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

I love this project yet I have serious misgivings concerning the bike ramps. I view them as extremely dangerous for everyone on the street, especially if a bike is traveling at speed. Inclement weather will probably make things worse. The good thing is that the bumpouts and ramps are only pieces of concrete and can be modified if they do not preform as expected.

 

[drum118]

I love this project yet I have serious misgivings concerning the bike ramps. I view them as extremely dangerous for everyone on the street, especially if a bike is traveling at speed. Inclement weather will probably make things worse. The good thing is that the bumpouts and ramps are only pieces of concrete and can be modified if they do not preform as expected.

I was planning on taking a look earlier this week, but things came up to forced me to take a look on Friday if thing don't change.

Not surprise to see the delay until next year based on what I was seeing these past few months.

I have miss given with the ramps for the platforms as it only going to take one snow storm to block them as well having plows trying to clear the street, but will wait to see what happen first.

If they have to be removed at some future date, they will have an impact on everyone again as well scaring the road.

I wish the hydro was put underground as it would enhances the street a lot more to along with the wider sidewalks.

 

[catcher_of_cats]

Construction will not be finished this year. Only about half of the west side will be done this month. They appear to setting up for temporary paving close to Queen. The construction that is complete in the center does look pretty decent with the pavers.

 

[DSC]

Construction will not be finished this year. Only about half of the west side will be done this month. They appear to setting up for temporary paving close to Queen. The construction that is complete in the center does look pretty decent with the pavers.

This pdf gives details of what is, and what is not, done. http://www.toronto.ca/involved/projects/roncesvalles_reconstruction/pdf/2010-12-01_notice.pdf

I agree that what is finished looks pretty good and one must remember that it looked very run-down before! I agree with Drum that it would have been great to see the hydro wires buried but that is what derailed and delayed the St Clair project. In any case the streetcars will be back in a couple of weeks so at least the 504 will be 'back to normal".

 

[junctionist]

I agree that what is finished looks pretty good and one must remember that it looked very run-down before! I agree with Drum that it would have been great to see the hydro wires buried but that is what derailed and delayed the St Clair project. In any case the streetcars will be back in a couple of weeks so at least the 504 will be 'back to normal".

No, it was the anti-ROW activism that derailed and delayed the St. Clair project.