[DSC]

Here's an idea. Can't a City Councillor (Not sure who would be the best for this?) put forth a motion that prohibits the notorious exercise of utility companies digging up sidewalks/walkways, etc. and patching them with asphalt? Considering that such a motion passes, the City would have the authority to fine the perpetrators for each offense. This could be quite a lucrative tool for the City. And given that this is everyday practice in Toronto, the money collected from these fines could fund transit expansion for years to come; well, the last part was facetious, but couldn't the motion prospect fly?

Utility companies (and anyone) need to get a City permit to make "utility cuts" on the streets and sidewalks. The permit fees (supposedly) cover the cost of the City fixing the hole(s). The City wants to do the final repair itself so it is done properly and they usually wait for at least one winter before making these repairs so that the earth settles properly. They also fix a whole street or block at one time for obvious reasons. Until the utility cut is properly repaired the contractor who made it is responsible for making sure it is properly patched. That's the theory!
The City also has a "construction moratorium" on streets it has recently repaired. They describe this as: " A City policy that prevents non-emergency roadwork from taking place in an area where it has occurred in the past five years. This is done to reduce disruption to a community where work has previously taken place and to maintain the quality of our roads. " If you look at the City TOInView website http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=bfe817b06fbc1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD you can see these moratorium streets marked. Unfortunately they seem unable to apply their policy as utility companies seem to use the word "emergency" to cover cases where they need to expand their networks (an emergency need for income?)

 

[pman]

Utility companies (and anyone) need to get a City permit to make "utility cuts" on the streets and sidewalks. The permit fees (supposedly) cover the cost of the City fixing the hole(s). The City wants to do the final repair itself so it is done properly and they usually wait for at least one winter before making these repairs so that the earth settles properly. They also fix a whole street or block at one time for obvious reasons. Until the utility cut is properly repaired the contractor who made it is responsible for making sure it is properly patched. That's the theory!
The City also has a "construction moratorium" on streets it has recently repaired. They describe this as: " A City policy that prevents non-emergency roadwork from taking place in an area where it has occurred in the past five years. This is done to reduce disruption to a community where work has previously taken place and to maintain the quality of our roads. " If you look at the City TOInView website http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/contentonly?vgnextoid=bfe817b06fbc1410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD you can see these moratorium streets marked. Unfortunately they seem unable to apply their policy as utility companies seem to use the word "emergency" to cover cases where they need to expand their networks (an emergency need for income?)

The moratorium appears to be ineffective. For example MacPherson was recently repaved between Yonge and Avenue, then a utility cut appeared near the Avenue side within a week of the street's reopening.

 

[DSC]

The moratorium appears to be ineffective. For example MacPherson was recently repaved between Yonge and Avenue, then a utility cut appeared near the Avenue side within a week of the street's reopening.

Yes, totally! The City needs to have MUCH higher Utility Cut Permit Fes for roads under moratorium.

 

[Armour]

Why is this problem unique to Toronto? My neighbourhood has looked like crap for about a decade. Sidewalks dug up, patched with asphalt; left to sit like that for years. Funny, the sidewalk across the street from my house had been covered in long strips of asphalt (basically like a red carpet), that stretched for hundreds of feet. I contacted my local City Councillor last week and asked when this was going to be fixed (it had been like this for 2 years); the next day the sidewalk was rebuilt. So in other words, it would have remained the way it was, indefinitely, had I not brought it to the attention of my Councillor. Which also begs the question: Why didn't he do something about it sooner (especially considering that he said it had been that way for too long)? Where's the initiative?

Then there is the perpetual plague of Bell telephone lines being strung from residential neighbourhood light poles and trees; like a giant zip line circuit across the city. Why is this sort of thing allowed to persist? It makes neighbourhoods look like they're in a constant state of disarray. Nothing looks complete or tidy. It's bewildering how complacent our politicians and citizens are. Doesn't anyone, outside of this board, find these issues troubling and shameful? Will there ever come a time when this city actually looks half decent, or are we doomed to forever look like a chafed crotch? There's no rhythm, balance or order to any our streetscapes and public areas. It's as if we're a society of laplanders that is merely industrious and does it what it needs to survive; and any sort of aesthetic standards and invest is negligible. What makes this city so exceptionally neurotic about ignoring these issues and maintaining such a disheveled self image?

 

[Forgotten]

Then there is the perpetual plague of Bell telephone lines being strung from residential neighbourhood light poles and trees; like a giant zip line circuit across the city. Why is this sort of thing allowed to persist? It makes neighbourhoods look like they're in a constant state of disarray. Nothing looks complete or tidy. It's bewildering how complacent our politicians and citizens are. Doesn't anyone, outside of this board, find these issues troubling and shameful? Will there ever come a time when this city actually looks half decent, or are we doomed to forever look like a chafed crotch? There's no rhythm, balance or order to any our streetscapes and public areas. It's as if we're a society of laplanders that is merely industrious and does it what it needs to survive; and any sort of aesthetic standards and invest is negligible. What makes this city so exceptionally neurotic about ignoring these issues and maintaining such a disheveled self image?

No, you are not being neurotic. It is in fact the end of the world, but if this is to be our fate, then we will face the end times together, as brothers and sisters.

As we unambiguously backslide into this most cruel third world hell, I am here to say I stand with you.

I just wish I hadn't had my helper go out yesterday to get my car washed.

 

[Adjei]

Why is this problem unique to Toronto? My neighbourhood has looked like crap for about a decade. Sidewalks dug up, patched with asphalt; left to sit like that for years. Funny, the sidewalk across the street from my house had been covered in long strips of asphalt (basically like a red carpet), that stretched for hundreds of feet. I contacted my local City Councillor last week and asked when this was going to be fixed (it had been like this for 2 years); the next day the sidewalk was rebuilt. So in other words, it would have remained the way it was, indefinitely, had I not brought it to the attention of my Councillor. Which also begs the question: Why didn't he do something about it sooner (especially considering that he said it had been that way for too long)? Where's the initiative?

Then there is the perpetual plague of Bell telephone lines being strung from residential neighbourhood light poles and trees; like a giant zip line circuit across the city. Why is this sort of thing allowed to persist? It makes neighbourhoods look like they're in a constant state of disarray. Nothing looks complete or tidy. It's bewildering how complacent our politicians and citizens are. Doesn't anyone, outside of this board, find these issues troubling and shameful? Will there ever come a time when this city actually looks half decent, or are we doomed to forever look like a chafed crotch? There's no rhythm, balance or order to any our streetscapes and public areas. It's as if we're a society of laplanders that is merely industrious and does it what it needs to survive; and any sort of aesthetic standards and invest is negligible. What makes this city so exceptionally neurotic about ignoring these issues and maintaining such a disheveled self image?

That's the thing, nobody in this city from from the general public to the politicians gives a damn how the city looks. Apart from a few in the city, no one cares. That's the way it is and until people start caring and demanding the city looks better nothing will change. Other cities look good because the citizens there are concerned about how the city looks.

 

[Armour]

Basically every city in the world cares about how it looks; minus some 3rd world locales. What is it, precisely, about Torontonians, that makes us so disinterested in this? I can't wrap my head around it. It's such an enigma. If our city was a haircut, it would be Jesse Ventura's skullet with mutton chops.

How did the rest of the country develop basic standards of order and cleanliness, yet we somehow missed out? It's like we're a bunch of Mowglis from The Jungle Book, and we're so isolated from the rest of the world that we never had any outside influence to learn and draw from and emulate. Instead of observing how other cities look and prioritize these things, it's as if we've never looked beyond our own trailer park mentality. Toronto is like a massive version of Sunnyvale; intellectually and aesthetically. We're not this creative city that we've been led to believe (that aspect of the city is so miniscule it's barely noticeable; and practically absent in the suburbs). We're not the greatest city on earth; as we would like to believe. Great cities look the part; they don't look like the white crud that forms on one's lips when they're really thirsty.

It's strange that it takes outsiders to bring to light how much greatness this city possesses and how immense our potential is (Jane Jacobs, David Pecaut, for instance). Where are our local visionaries? Ari Goldkind seems to have that conviction that the city needs in a civic leader; but we need more people in positions of power and influence that actually love the city more than their own egos and self interests. I can't think of a more self absorbed bunch of people than Torontonians. From most of our developers (whose only concern is to line their pockets with money, without giving any consideration to what they destroy or leave behind); to our our collective obsession with social media (no other city on the planet uses it more than Torontonians; what a sad fact). We're a city of people that are in love with their own shallow lives.

Most of the city is so insular and lacks any sense of community. When people aren't united, there's no push for betterment. We just focus on our own lives and take our neighbourhoods for granted. Our municipal leaders recognize that all they have to talk about are roads, transportation and social housing and they're golden; like Ponyboy from The Outsiders. Create the illusion that they're working to solve these problems and people just keep voting in the same dead weight, over and over. Nothing ever changes re the public realm because there is zero demand. Why bother when there is no pressure to change the status quo?

Oddly, it angers people when we do make those seldom improvements (Sugar Beach, Queens Quay, etc.). We keep telling ourselves that the roads are congested and there are housing shortages (which are true), but these are issues that every major city on the planet faces, and they'll never cease. If we're held hostage to that type of logic, on a perpetual basis, then we'll never invest in anything that isn't absolutely necessary (granite sidewalks, for example, burying hydro wires, and so on). The excuses from our politicians and electorate are pathetic and they quell the creative spirit. No wonder so many imaginative people leave this city for places like New York or Europe. They want to live in cities where great ideas can flourish and creativity can be manifested in tangible things for the public's enjoyment. In Toronto, it's nearly impossible for great ideas to emerge because we live in a culture that devalues true art and beauty. We place a price tag next to everything instead of dreaming a little and putting in more effort than is required. This is an attitude that needs to die or we'll forever languish in a lethargy of banality.

 

[DSC]

Why is this problem unique to Toronto? My neighbourhood has looked like crap for about a decade. Sidewalks dug up, patched with asphalt; left to sit like that for years. Funny, the sidewalk across the street from my house had been covered in long strips of asphalt (basically like a red carpet), that stretched for hundreds of feet. I contacted my local City Councillor last week and asked when this was going to be fixed (it had been like this for 2 years); the next day the sidewalk was rebuilt. So in other words, it would have remained the way it was, indefinitely, had I not brought it to the attention of my Councillor.

While I am happy that your sidewalks are fixed and it is certainly not a bad idea to bug you local Councillor about these things, I can assure you that a complaint made one day does not result in (non-emergency) work being done the next. The City decides months ahead which streets/blocks are getting utility cut repairs and the locations are often in the initial bid documents.

 

[wopchop]

You guys act like the city doesn't coordinate utility work with road resurfacing, which they most certainly do. They plan for this sort of thing 4 - 5 years in advance.

The problem is that most utility cuts are "emergency work" cuts, which you cannot plan for. The city is required by Federal law to give utility companies access to the space beneath the road in these circumstances.

You also have the City which is planning road building on a five-year timeline, but you have for-profit companies like Rogers, Bell, Cogeco, etc. that most certainly cannot predict the demand of their customers five years in advance. This creates long-term planning issues that aren't so easy to resolve.

I agree that there isn't enough follow up for repairs to utility cuts or making sure that the temporary fill is decent. This could definitely be improved.

 

[MisterF]

^The question remains, then, why is this problem unique to Toronto? What are other cities doing that we're not?

Armour, the creative side of Toronto is far bigger than you think. The problem is that a lot of the creative types and members of this forum don't care about how the city looks any more than the rest of the population. Some actually prefer the public realm to look shabby and fight any attempts at improvement. Just look at some of the posts on this thread defending the state of our streets. Also, overhead power lines on residential streets are pretty common in other cities as well. But those cities tend to bury them on commercial main streets while Toronto doesn't.

As we unambiguously backslide into this most cruel third world hell, I am here to say I stand with you.

View attachment 49501

I just wish I hadn't had my helper go out yesterday to get my car washed.

How does this add to the conversation? You're comparing Toronto to some third world city where people make $20 a week and the wealth is a fraction of what's available to Toronto. Maybe show some pictures of a similar commercial area in a city in a wealthy country like Canada. You'll have a much harder time I assure you. Even within Canada, the kind of messy streetscapes we take for granted in Toronto are few and far between in Montreal, Calgary, and Vancouver.

 

[wopchop]

^The question remains, then, why is this problem unique to Toronto? What are other cities doing that we're not?r.

Here's the thing, it isn't an issue that is unique to Toronto. I don't understand why people here think that it is one. Sure, when you travel and go to some well-maintained tourist locales, it isn't an issue. But try going outside those areas. When I lived in NYC, it was something that definitely happened in non-Manhattan boroughs, including the area that I lived in (Washington Heights is technically still Manhattan). The DOT customer service advertised defective road repairs / utility cuts as one of the issues that it would receive complaints about. How effective they are at dealing with the issue, I'm not sure.

Seeing what other cities are doing to mitigate the issue is a fair point, and something that the City has claimed that they are doing. This was supposed to be part of the staff reports that were being done 5 years ago. Sounds like there either hasn't been much progress, or the council doesn't care and hasn't acted on the recommendations of those staff reports. The fact that under Ford and now Tory, we are continually cutting department budgets probably does not help.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Ah, c'mon Mister F -- Forgotten is totally adding to the conversation, albeit not in the 'sky is falling' mode that is the norm on this thread. I do appreciate Armour's epic rant -- it's for that kind of belly-laugh-inducing screed that I occasionally dip into this thread.

Toronto is a beautiful city with lots of construction activity, and sometimes those two goals don't quite match up with what some UT aesthetes wish to have happen. This thread gives them the chance to vent -- would you rather they took up a sandwich board in NPS? (Actually... that'd be kind of fun to see. "I'm marching until we get bronze streetlamps at least out to the Queensway!")

That the rest of us occasionally make fun of over-the-top rants about how the 'city just doesn't care' is just grist for the mill...

 

[Tewder]

Here's the thing, it isn't an issue that is unique to Toronto. I don't understand why people here think that it is one. Sure, when you travel and go to some well-maintained tourist locales, it isn't an issue. But try going outside those areas.

The issue is that it happens everywhere in Toronto, including what should be 'well-maintained tourist locales'. Do you not see any difference in comparing the condition of Washington Heights say to Yonge and Dundas or any other central downtown street in Toronto?

Toronto is a beautiful city with lots of construction activity, and sometimes those two goals don't quite match up with what some UT aesthetes wish to have happen.

Demanding basic care doesn't make one an aesthete, and if this is what you think then you are part of the problem. We are not asking for Paris but we would like the city to not look third world... besides, look how amazing Toronto does look when some effort is invested, i.e. Front Street now or Market Street.

 

[wopchop]

The issue is that it happens everywhere in Toronto, including what should be 'well-maintained tourist locales'. Do you not see any difference in comparing the condition of Washington Heights say to Yonge and Dundas or any other central downtown street in Toronto?

Of course I see the difference. And I agree that it is an issue. But people in this thread like to get up on their soapbox and claim that it only happens in Toronto, which is clearly false. I also guarantee that some of the places that people are complaining about are areas that are not central tourist locales.

 

[Adjei]

Toronto is a beautiful city? You must be kidding me.