[Woodbridge_Heights]

Hey folks,

I think I was able to attach a photo of prototype # 14.

This will will you see how passenger flow works.

Sharon, the Dragons Den gal. from that little town in the north.

See I don't get how you can talk about how signs, painted lines, and arrows don't work in crowd control but that your system sill solve all of that. What prevents a boarding passenger from entering the train via the exit doors (say to bypass the crowd at the entrance doors) or vice versa someone on the train using the entrance doors to exit. What you'd need is a one way barrier arm (No Frills has these so that you can't leave the store via the entrance. Or more specifically you can't take a full shopping car out that way.), or turnstile. Virtually reducing passenger movement to single file, and I can't see how that will speed things up.

 

[andomano]

I don't see how this could be implemented at some stations with very narrow, such as Yonge, and still allow space for wheelchairs, and the overcrowding during the rush hours.


The TTC does have an excellent model for passenger flow and that's at Kennedy Station (RT). With passengers exiting the train exit towards the North platform, and enter the train using the South, the train is unloaded and loaded within 30 seconds easily. Of course due to dwell time and the drivers having to walk from end to end, this speedy boarding can't be taken advantage of. The only other station (I can think of) in the system that's set up for this would be Sheppard/Yonge on the Sheppard line, where there is a future possibility for the center platform and side platforms to be utilized in this regard.

 

[EnviroTO]

The issue is definitely that a design with platform gates away from the platform edge requires greater platform widths because of the space required to fit a sizeable walkway inside the gated area, and that there needs to be a way for a subway operator to open and close these gates from inside the train being careful not to trap people between the train and the gate. Since the risk of crowing is greatest in the stations with the least platform space available this solution definitely wouldn't work for Toronto.

 

[dunkalunk]

Couldn't the ttc just implement an announcement that states "doors opening, keep right" How much could such an announcement cost?

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

in response to EnvroTO,

You talk in terms of not much space to travel in. How much space do you have when you leave the train??? maybe 10 inches, to squeeze through sideways.

If people stand to the side to let the others exit the train there is ample room to leave. The only times I have seen this not practiced is at a rammed full platform, or with those passengers who are either a) unfamilliar with the system and it's "social code" or b) self centred/ignorant passengers who are only concerned with themselves.

It sounds like this is your inspiration (perhaps due to some personal experience?) and not safety/sucide prevention. The safety/suicide vector is simply the vehicle that you use to get more people to listen to you.

There are many solution I have created. One I did not bring to the show includes passenger door traffic lighting system.;

Arrows and yellow lines and announcement DO NOT WORK.

What makes your passenger door lighting system work better than arrows and yellow lines?

Did you further know that 79 hours of train operation has been brought to a halt during primarily rush hour due to suicides and track fires. The greatest time dely being suicides. Our entire city is brought to a HALT due to this lack of safety.

79 hours per what? Day, week, month, year? I'm going to assume yearly (and I question where you get the information since the TTC does not speak at all about suicides), that's roughly 2 work weeks out of every year lost. Not to sound cold but losing essentially a vacation period over the course of the year does not sound all that dire. Yes we should try to fix it though.
See attached some traffic lighting systems photos.

What I honestly need is about 2 or 3 hours of time with TTC and indeed go over every one of these questions in detail. To each of them I provide a fairly good answer.

You haven't answered them here. What prevents someone from entering via the exit doors? Nothing!

The biggest question is How do we reduce valuable train dwell time at Yonge and Bloor without spending hundreds of millions of dollars?

Yes how?

 

[kEiThZ]

I don't mind having this study but I am skeptical it would reduce dwell times. What Sharon's system really is, is a controlled entry on to a boarding platform. And she is using a two phase operation (embarking and disembarking) with maybe some slight overlap. Given that you have to cross a barrier onto a second platform and then make your way to the train (unless the driver lines up perfectly), this could actually take longer. The driver would also have to ensure that the barrier is closed and the boarding platform is empty before pulling out of the station. That's sure to increase dwell times. As a suicide barrier, the product might be worthwhile. In terms of reducing dwell times I am skeptical that it could knock off 20 seconds per boarding.

 

[nfitz]

I still don't see how it would speed boardings. At a typical station people are entering some doors, while still exiting others.

The only place in Toronto you see this in use is at Union, where they open one set of doors on a GO Train to let passengers out, and another to let passengers in, after the mess has cleared. But they schedule a 5-6 minutes dwell time.

 

[nfitz]

Either 10 million per station, or between $200,000 and $900,000

We've already explained to you why you can't use glass doors from Home Depot in a subway station, and that your costing is grossly underestimated. Why are you still using the wrong numbers?

Surely continuing to use costing data that has been demonstrated to be wrong, makes one question the integrity of the entire scheme!

 

[299 bloor call control.]

The reason why it's going to cost a lot because most of these platforms aren't built to handle the weight of 24 sets of automatic doors. Most of the cost is to retrofit the existing platforms safely accommodate the increased load. How does your plan factor in the weight of the planned new doors and gates, and most importantly, the weight of your toy figures?

 

[nfitz]

I have writtn quotations for various sizing installed for automatic glass door starting at $8,900 plus taxes.

Do they meet ANSI A156.10? What about ANSI 117.1?

 

[Asterix]

1 billion to provide platform safety to 69 stations, or say 30 to 100 million instead.

Since the question wasn't addressed last time I posted it, I'll try again. Would more lives be saved by spending 30 to 100 million to 1 billion on platform safety to prevent those inclined to suicide from accessing the tracks or by spending that amount of money on mental health programs to prevent people from becoming inclined to suicide (whether subway, bridge or other)?

My Attitude is NO ONE again has to die in a subway pit.

NO ONE again has to be subjected to witness these deaths.

No more hundreds of hours with a mass transit brought to a halt.

No more hundreds of hours in clean up etc. police, ems, investigation, etc.

Simple safety (non climbable guards) will achieve this.

But this is all to simply address one symptom of the problem of mental illness/depression and not an underlying cause. If reducing death (and having people face the consequences of that death) is your goal, then wouldn't the money be better spent at root cause prevention than one type of execution prevention?

I have computerized train simulation proof, using (low numbers of boarders and exiters), I don't have the accurated # 's for Yonge and Bloor, but just by changing "attitude" of passengers, consistently dwell time is reduced by 18 seconds. These facts I have to leave to TTC, for proving the exact dwell time reduction savings.

Maybe others have grasped it, but I haven't understood how you are so sure of this across-the-board reduction in dwell times. Your previous math seemed to be applied to all stations in both directions throughout 3 hour peak periods.

I simply have a hard time believing that for many stations, even in peak directions, the limiting factor is passenger entrance and exit. Mornings southbound on Yonge from Eglinton is more constrained by there not being room on the trains and not by people blocking those trying to get off.

It is common sense, remove the wall of people, you increase egress flow.

This summarizes my difficulty with the passenger flow proposal. From my own experience, the situations where there is dwell time to be cut, the problem is that there are simply too many people in too small a space (Yonge/Bloor, St George). Putting them in corrals is not going to reduce the footprint they take up and will likely further inhibit flow as you try and squeeze those waiting to board into smaller areas.

 

[Asterix]

If you are going to question my figures, why don't you call the manufactures yourself. Wholesale price for companies like Wal-mart $8,900 , retail just to put one automated glass door in is about $12,500, depending on which company you use. These are installed pricing. TTC would just have to put in an overhead continuous beam.

I think the point others were trying to make is that installing an entire row of automated glass doors along a station platform is not the same as installing those same doors in the environment they were designed for - pedestrian access to buildings.

They are trying to make you aware that there is more to the project than taking the cost to install a set of doors to your local Macs Milk and multiplying it by 24 for a subway station.

 

[nfitz]

For starters, the wall is 24 inches set back from the edge. This may have something to do with more weight barely ability.

If the doors are 24 inches set back from the edge, how do make sure there are no pedestrians left in that 24-inches after the subway train doors close?

 

[kEiThZ]

All exit zone doors do not close until the train in part way left the station.
And even then, a separate release button can be on each door.

And there could be a one way exit manual door at each end of the platform.

There generally is a good answer to most questions.
Sharon

So if somebody is the boarding area, they could potentially be there when the train starts moving. How does that prevent suicides? Couldn't somebody get in there and wait for the next train? Or are you suggesting that a person in the boarding area when there's no train or an approaching train would now be cause for an emergency stop?

 

[kEiThZ]

I agree with Asterix.

The two biggest issues with respect to dwell time is overcrowding on the train and overcrowding on the platform. No barrier or platform screen door will fix the first problem (or not at the levels of overcrowding we've got). And I really can't see how taking away 24 inches on each platform would solve the second for stations like Yonge, St. George or Union.

Ultimately though this is a dollars and cents issue. Suicides don't cost us enough to make these barriers worthwhile. Even if it's 30 million. And if that was the cost to the system you'd have a business case for doing the YUS loop at 10 million per station. Far better to take the tens or hundreds of millions and plough them into the DRL and alleviate the overcrowding in the first place that necessitates passenger flow control, platform screen doors, etc.