[Armour]

A week ago I got back from a vacation in Naples, Florida and happened upon an exquisite outdoor shopping centre called: Waterside Shops. I went for dinner at California Pizza Kitchen with my dad and brother. Afterwards I suggested taking a walk through the centre (not knowing what to expect) and was thoroughly surprised and impressed with the layout of the space. Running through the middle of it is one of the most incredible fountains I have ever seen. The mosaic tiles, natural stone walls and upright water features were fantastic and beautifully laid out (see video and pictures below).

Flanking the fountain are the shops (the tenants I didn't even really observe because I was so enamoured with the serenity of the space). It was a perfectly warm and calm evening and the light of the sunset cast on the water made for a gorgeous atmosphere. I also couldn't help but notice the abundance of benches (something that is sorely lacking in our public spaces).

This whole experience reminded me of the most similar shopping experience in Toronto: Shops at Don Mills. I couldn't help but feel disenchanted with our version of an outdoor retail centre. The worst aspect about SADM is the fact that cars are allowed to drive through it (don't get me started on the planning failure of implementing a massive parking deck right along The Donway W). By contrast, Waterside Shops are entirely pedestrian oriented, with parking lots surrounding it. All parking should have been placed below ground at SADM, with a few vehicular access points on the periphery of the complex (not permeating the retail area). Removing the roads and expanding retail/public space over the footprint of the parking garage node would do wonders for the place.

The fountain/pool at Waterside Shops (which is its central and defining characteristic) also left me with the sense that the public square at Shops at Don Mills could have been so much more than what we got. We essentially have a square covered with artificial turf and a fairly banal fountain in one corner. While it would be nice to have something of similar quality and scale as the fountain at Waterside Shops, in this space, I realize, with our climate, that this would be a dormant, wasted space, for 2/3 of the year and it would fall into disrepair, most likely.

Another aspect at Waterside Shops (and the city of Naples in general) is its pristine public realm. Their trees and plants/flowers are perfectly manicured, their sidewalks are spotless and litter is non-existent. The plant beds at SADM have never seen a flower (as far as I can remember) and they are sparsely filled with mostly ill looking conifers (with about the same appeal as the dead trees that lined Bloor St in the not too distant past). SADM isn't entirely bad. It's a lively place and serves its purpose pretty decently, but the details and dynamics could have been better with a more clever firm at the helm.

Anyway, here is a video and some photos that will give you an idea of my experience:

Robert Frye

Tim Aten

SchmidtHappensInc

golfshorebusiness.com

JPRA Architects

condo.com

Some info from the architect's website: http://www.jpra.com/waterside.html

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

This whole experience reminded me of the most similar shopping experience in Toronto: Shops at Don Mills. I couldn't help but feel disenchanted with our version of an outdoor retail centre.

You could (without exaggeration) go on a google streetview tour of random small towns and villages in the Amazon rainforest of Brazil and see examples of public realm done better than in Toronto.

I'm not sure why public realm is so difficult to get right.

 

[interchange42]

Oh please, if any towns in the Amazon rainforest are looking better than Toronto, it's because an unconscionable amount of money is being misspent, instead of going to lifting people out of poverty. If you're joking though, ah-ha ah-ha ah-haaaaaaaa.

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[Midtown Urbanist]

Oh please, if any towns in the Amazon rainforest are looking better than Toronto, it's because an unconscionable amount of money is being misspent, instead of going to lifting people out of poverty. If you're joking though, ah-ha ah-ha ah-haaaaaaaa.

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Oh I wouldn't have made that claim without anything to back it up. I was exploring around late last night and came across this random village in the Amazon.

You do not need to spend exuberant amount of money in making a good public realm. You just need some common sense. I chose an extreme example of a random Amazonian village, but the truth is I used to live in South America myself, and the entire country was filled with public squares and plazas that put most things in Toronto to shame. For anyone who has traveled to Europe or Asia, this shouldn't come as a surprise, the rest of the world just does it so much better than here.

Within Toronto, only the Shops at Don Mills and some of the things coming up along the Waterfront neighbourhoods really impresses me, for Toronto standards.

 

[Armour]

The public realm at Shops at Don Mills really isn't that great. It's downright crappy in some respects.

The sidewalk planters are sparsely filled. They have line or two random shrubs in them. Why not fill them entirely with flowers or manicured bushes? And like basically every other public planter in the city, their borders are made of concrete? Why not use a classier and more beautiful material: brick, granite, stone?

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7350...cIOylBMoXcuJRneeDw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7344...0autZ_5K13IKaSvmIw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

If the roads were removed and the entire centre became pedestrianized, a massive fountain/pond could go here, for instance: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.7342...PRZcPdjWJz5jOCVLzQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Which firm did the landscaping/public realm here? Compare the quality of materials and the health/beauty of the vegetation in the Waterside Shops example I posted above. SADM is so new, yet, it would look far better if it got a makeover from a high regarded architectural landscaping firm. I find the public space at SADM to be pretty bland.

The light poles are gray and pretty standard looking. It would also be better to somehow conceal the concrete foundations they stand upon.

 

[interchange42]

Apples and Oranges, @WislaHD. They've got a nice garden there for a small town. Great! Seriously, it's pretty. They've also got a year-round growing season and don't deal with snow nor the road salt that comes along with that. Is that town stunning, does it put Toronto to shame? No, and no. Could Toronto do a better job? It sure could.

Does hyperbole help? Do false equivalencies help? I don't think so. I think they just invite people to argue points with you, like I'm doing. I think @Armour's approach makes some more sense—where he's identifying things he sees as deficiencies—but only to a point again, because he's comparing the SaDM to a Florida mall with year-round warm weather.

Anyway, at SaDM, none of that is public. It's all private, with Cadillac Fairview calling the shots including what materials were used to create the planters and what's planted in them. They could have done better on the first count, and could be doing better on the second, if they wanted to. It's probably worth it for those who shop there and care, to mention to store managers that they could be doing better on the landscaping. Send CadFair emails. Make it known that people are noticing, and get them thinking about it, and keep pushing them on it. It's the best you can do if you want change.

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[Armour]

Apples and Oranges, @WislaHD. They've got a nice garden there for a small town. Great! Seriously, it's pretty. They've also got a year-round growing season and don't deal with snow nor the road salt that comes along with that. Is that town stunning, does it put Toronto to shame? No, and no. Could Toronto do a better job? It sure could.

Does hyperbole help? Do false equivalencies help? I don't think so. I think they just invite people to argue points with you, like I'm doing. I think @Armour's approach makes some more sense—where he's identifying things he sees as deficiencies—but only to a point again, because he's comparing the SaDM to a Florida mall with year-round warm weather.

Anyway, at SaDM, none of that is public. It's all private, with Cadillac Fairview calling the shots including what materials were used to create the planters and what's planted in them. They could have done better on the first count, and could be doing better on the second, if they wanted to. It's probably worth it for those who shop there and care, to mention to store managers that they could be doing better on the landscaping. Send CadFair emails. Make it known that people are noticing, and get them thinking about it, and keep pushing them on it. It's the best you can do if you want change.

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Yes, technically, SADM is privately owned, but I think people know what I meant by "public space" (the sidewalks/the main square, etc). I could have used a better term to describe this. And, you are correct re my Florida example; and them having year round, warm weather. I acknowledged that in my initial post. If the climate here was similar, I think there would be more emphasis on plantings and maintaining them (as they'd be in bloom in perpetuity). It's as if our mentality in this city is: the weather is only warm for a few, short months, therefore we must enjoy it and not be bothered with laborious tasks, such as making the city and our individual properties look nice (inevitably the trees and plants go dormant/die and our sidewalks and roads are covered in snow, ice and salt, dirt, etc; so why bother making a strong effort.

It's too bad a firm like Westbank doesn't control the Shops. I'm certain they'd have a more creative approach to the aforementioned issues.

 

[maestro]

I think most thought CF was nuts to proceed with the shops of Don Mills. In many ways, it was a proof of concept development in Toronto. Follow up developments should improve on The Shop's shortcomings. As for the plantings, that's a CF thing. I hardly feel its enough to make a mass generalization on our mentality here. Of course, I can't speak for most of Toronto but, homeowners spend a fortune on landscaping in my neighbourhoods and the garden centres have massive lineups on the weekends. This is in stark contrast to some other Canadian cities I spend time in.

 

[James]

Unfortunately, disregarding climate differences renders the whole comparison a moot point. I used to spend time in Florida regularly, and winter or summer, landscape doesn't really take the type of abuse that it does here. It's unfortunately a big limitation.

 

[interchange42]

My knowledge of such plants is limited to "those look good", but maybe we need more conifers in our landscaping as they remain green year round, or ornamental grasses which remain impressive when when dried in the winter. Beyond the expense of having to keep conifers trimmed to keep them looking good, what's the issue? Why do we see so few of them in public landscaping projects? There must be UT members who know…

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[DSC]

There is a pine disease in our area (possibly the fungus, diplodia tip blight, which can turn the needles on pine trees brown and make them appear dead. Diplodia kills new shoots, major branches and ultimately entire trees. ) We have lost several pines along The Esplanade and in Berczy and St James Parks.

 

[Armour]

I think most thought CF was nuts to proceed with the shops of Don Mills. In many ways, it was a proof of concept development in Toronto. Follow up developments should improve on The Shop's shortcomings. As for the plantings, that's a CF thing. I hardly feel its enough to make a mass generalization on our mentality here. Of course, I can't speak for most of Toronto but, homeowners spend a fortune on landscaping in my neighbourhoods and the garden centres have massive lineups on the weekends. This is in stark contrast to some other Canadian cities I spend time in.

Which neighbourhood do you live in? I find most of Toronto's residential front lawns are poorly landscaped; even many wealthy areas are dull in this regard. Not to mention the amount of litter I constantly find on people's properties, which only seems to be picked up when they mow their lawns.

Toronto's specialty seems to be dog strangling vine. We should let it run wild at SADM and throughout the city, like it does in our ravines. On a serious note; even just planting hostas and ferns in said planters would be better. Both are perennials and hostas can tolerate both sun and shade. They don't require much maintenance (though maintenance shouldn't be considered such a hassle, unworthy of commitment). Some cannas would be really nice in upright planters. I really like the foliage on the stuttgart variety (they also have pretty orange flowers):

Photo: orbea641

Photo: netpsplantfinder.com

 

[Armour]

Re the news of the revitalization of SADM, I found this photo on the official Facebook page:

Here's some more images: https://www.cfshops.com/shops-at-don-mills/redevelopment.html

 

[interchange42]

Our front page story on the upgrade is here.

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[Armour]

Funny how this was unveiled just days after our discussion around the desire for improvements. The renderings don't really inspire much confidence, though.