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What is your point? Are you saying that regular bicycles are exempt from the Highway Traffic Act?
No. My point is that any vehicle intended for primary use on the road (as opposed to electric wheelchairs and other occasional road users) that has a motor, gas or electric, should be licensed, plated and insured. What's the difference between a 25cc Moped and e-bike? One the former you need a M class license and insurance, the other you need nothing, yet they both do about 35-40 kph and weigh about the same, http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/emerging/#limited
 
...e-bikes, styled as Vespa scooters being operated like bicycles weaving in and out of traffic, running red lights and stop signs, no helmets on adult operators, etc.
SNIP
I think it's time for e-bikes to the treated the same as any other motorcycle.

In other words, all bicycles should be licensed.
The City has tried this several times before:
Toronto Bicycle Licensing History

On May 20, 1935 the City of Toronto passed a bylaw to license residents owning and using bicycles on the highways of the City.
On February 4, 1957, City Council repealed the bicycle licensing by-law in the City.

The City of Toronto has investigated licensing cyclists on at least three occasions in the recent past:
1984: focus on bike theft
1992: focus on riding on sidewalks, traffic law compliance and couriers
1996: focus on riding on sidewalks, traffic law compliance and couriers

Each time the City has rejected licensing as a solution to the problem under discussion. The major reasons why licensing has been rejected are:
The difficulty in keeping a database complete and current
The difficulty in licensing children, given that they ride bikes too
Licensing in and of itself does not change the behaviour of cyclists who are disobeying traffic laws.

Tks
L0Ck
 
Within the next 20 years or so, we'll start to see many "regular" motorcycles moving to electric engines, so might as well deal with the e-bikes now.

This does not follow. Motorcycles are designed for much greater power and speeds. eBikes are intended to mimic the slow speeds and low power of the pedal bicycle. If the objective is to flood our streets with slow speed, light weight and energy efficient vehicles like the pedal bicycle, where this traffic is far less of a threat to pedestrians and other cyclists, then ebikes (in any form, but as defined with low power and speed limits) are a great way to get another large slice of our neighbours "aboard" this plan.

Electric power on two wheels can also contribute to safety. Because the great (easy/lazy) acceleration provided by the electrics actually makes it "easier" to slow down and stop when required or prudent.

There are plenty of opportunities for exercise other than cycling, so requiring that two-wheels be pedal-only just discourages some folks that might otherwise get out of four wheels and on to two. Personally I prefer an ebike that is a true human-electric hybrid, with exercise built in as an *option*, but I still much prefer to have the little scooter-style ebikes around me in traffic than the minivans and SUVs...

There are already plenty of other threads online where these issues have been discussed at length eg:
http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/06/electric_bikes_and_scooters_in_toronto/
http://www.ibiketo.ca/taxonomy/term/387

Tks
loK
 
What's the difference between a 25cc Moped and e-bike?]

From that link:
Motor-Assisted Bicycles (Mopeds)
A motor-assisted bicycle is a bicycle that:
does not attain a speed greater than 50 km/hr...

There is a huge difference between 32kmh and 50kmh in terms of risk and the level of injury in accidents. Risk in this context is a function of high school physics (kinetic energy of bodies in motion) and human reaction times, usually degraded by lack of sleep, drugs, alcohol, yell phones, testosterone... well, it's a long list :)

tks
lock
 
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power-wheels-barbie-jammin-jeep-275.jpg


?
 
So watt is it that concerns you about motors Admiral? Ya know the ebikes consume less power than most hair dryers? Many ppl on pedal bikes can pedal to faster speeds than 32km/h?
tks
loCk
 
IMO, a lot of it has to do with weight relative to speed. With a traditional bicycle, the bicycle is essentially a physical extension of your body, where you are directly powering the wheels and have direct control over your speed. However, with scooter-styled e-bikes, the pedals are used incredibly rarely and there is little if any direct physical exertion used to power the machine except for an electronic spinged throttle. If you have the energy to grip a shopping cart, you have the energy to go 32km/h.
 
Sure, but how does the fact the vehicle is using a motor to effect bicycle speeds make it any less safe than pedal-only? I'm starting to see reports from ebike riders who have lots of pedal bike experience that their scooter-style ebikes may actually be safer than their pedal bikes. Partly this can be due to the fact they have pretty good lighting, although of course no reason why a pedal bike can't be just as well lit. But also that they're finding the car drivers seem to be giving them more distance than when they are on their pedal bikes. I've already noted how the electrics might be encouraging riders to slow down and stop when prudent or as required. Finally there have been very few reports of traffic accidents involving ebikes so far, but a couple of scooter-style ebike riders have noted that in a collision they just slid off and away from the vehicle, perhaps more easily than had they been straddling a pedal bike between their legs.

eBikes sales have been "taking off" around the world. One in eight new bikes sold today in Holland is electric. eBike sales in Holland are up "only" 20% this year over last, while last year they grew by 25% over the year before. Germany figures they will sell 200,000 ebikes this year, up 40% over last year... None of the EU countries require that ebikes have licences...

The OP premised his idea "... e-bikes, styled as Vespa scooters being operated like bicycles weaving in and out of traffic, running red lights and stop signs, no helmets on adult operators, etc." so it appears the licencing idea is intended to protect ppl from themselves? Pretty sure this behaviour is not a danger to the car people...

And if the concern is that the scooter-style ebikes are "too heavy" then perhaps tandem bikes and cargo bikes should require a licence also. Perhaps persons over a certain weight should be restricted...

tks
Lock
 
Okay then, is the consensus here that any motorized vehicle of relatively light weight that does not exceed 32 kph and has the required lighting, brakes, etc. should be allowed on the road with any license, insurance, etc? For example, here is the 49cc gas powered Piaggio Ciao http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/piaggio_ciao_2006.php. In New Jersey, and IIRC Texas, a moped like the Ciao must be modified to not exceed 25 mph (about 32 kph). Or is this just an electric motor idea?
 
Compare that Ciao to another classic moped design, updated as electric... the eSolex:
bike.jpg


Similar? Electrics can't compete with gas (yet) if ya want high speed and long distance non-stop travel... But this aside they offer numerous advantages? They run on almost any power source, not just hydrocarbons. They can use nuclear and coal as in Ontario today but also hydro and wind and solar... At bicycle speeds eg 32km/h without pedal assist they consume about 20Wh/km and less. Equivalent to about 17 food calories per km, so they are extremely energy efficient. And like the pedal bike they always travel with one full seat versus the motorized carriage that we often see 3/4 empty as driver plus three empty seats...

Personally I'm a big fan of the Victorian pedal bike. In over 100 years of existance it has proven itself as a human-friendly form of transport. While I don't live in Denmark or Holland or other places that we see as "bike friendly" I am thrilled to be in downtown Toronto where Statscan reports we have neighbourhoods approaching 20% bicycle use - where 20% of residents report the pedal bicycle as their primary form of transport. No accident of course with the large student populations attached to UofT and Ryerson etc...

But for Canada as a whole less than 2% report the bicycle as their primary transport. I see ebikes as a way to take some of the best features of the pedal bicycle and updating the platform to appeal to a larger demographic. Apart from it's low speed and small size and light weight, I think some of the pedal bikes best features are watt it doesn't have, which are seat belts and crush zones and air bags. Without these features I believe operators are more circumspect about their own safety and this makes the vehicle safer for the rest of us around them.

One research paper presented at a transportation convention in Ontario this year reported that once bicycle trips account for 20% of all trips the streets start getting safer for cyclists... it's about this point that the car drivers finally wake up to the fact there are cyclists all around them. So for me ebikes are just about helping to flood our streets with little two-wheelers in the push for more bike lanes and better cycling infrastructure and safer streets.

I got my first ebike ten years ago, and rode over eight years and over 20,000km around Toronto in regular commutes. But my vehicles have been foot bikes with power-assist aka adult-sized kick scooters with batteries. About 60lbs in weight and foldup. It's been interesting to see the rise of modern ebikes in Toronto in recent years. I have mixed feelings about the scooter-style ebikes. They are certainly not watt I imagined ebikes would look like. The European experience with ebikes has been very different, because of their 250W maximum and pedelec requirement. Compared to gasoline and even the food energy stored in fat the energy density of batteries is very small. EVery pedal cyclist knows lighter vehicles are more energy efficient and feature faster acceleration and faster braking, all else equal. So I believe with time Toronto ebikers will learn these lessons and a more informed market will demand lighter more "bicycle-like" ebikes... When they have the right ergonomics to be pedaled comfortably then exercise is built in as an option, and ebikers never have to suffer from "range anxiety" wondering whether they have enough charge left to get to their destination.

I know some in the "traditional" bike community have negative views about the scooter-style ebikes. They complain they are too fast or too slow or too wide or too heavy, but I haven't found any of this to be true in any sense that affects safety on our streets. And just like folks on pedal bikes, some folks riding ebikes are going to misbehave. But I believe these are still early daze... too early to be planning restrictions. It's an interesting experiment. Cut it short now and the full results might never be known.

There's a fun bit of bicycle history on the web. About the fight against pedal bicycles being permitted in Central Park in NYC, here:
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/highwayhistory/stone_cp.cfm


Pretty amazing that in Copenhagen, a city we see as "bike friendly" it's only in the last few years they have relaxed a ban on riding bicycles in their city parks.
Cheers
LocK
 
I frankly think ALL bikes should be licensed. If they're going to be on our streets, then a standard ought to be set, and should have been set long, long ago.

  • I'm sick to death of watching people on bikes looking around to make sure nothing's coming, and then blowing through red lights. Hey, we can do that in cars, too, but that would be irresponsible, wouldn't it?
  • I'm sick of bicyclists demanding the privileges of vehicles and then watching them avail themselves of the rights of pedestrians.
  • I'm fed up with watching cyclists drive on the wrong side of the road or whichever way they please up one way streets, or hopping onto sidewalks as it suits them.
  • I'm tired of watching cyclists soaring by without helmets while cops run spot-checks to make sure motorists are buckled up.

All this, and yet every time some cyclist winds up a statistic, the others immediately bleat it HAD to have been the fault of some motorist.

I fail to understand why I should be required to respect, as a fellow vehicle on the public roads, something that legally CAN be, and IS being, driven unregistered, by any untrained, unlicensed, uninsured, five-year-old. That's not a vehicle. That's a toy.

When you have to be of certain designated age and responsibility to be on the road, when you have to pay for and hang a plate on your bike, when you have to train for and earn a license to drive it in traffic, when you have to have insurance in case you have or CAUSE an accident, and when you have to -- and DO -- follow the same rules and safety standards hunched over the handlebars that you wouldn't dream of defying sitting behind the wheel, you'll have my respect. Till then, you're just a loose cannon on two wheels, as far as I'm concerned; an unaccountable threat to my safety and yours.
 

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