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- Thread starter gweed123
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diminutive
Active Member
Really the only service I can think of which would benefit being uploaded to a GTHA-tier is rapid transit. Everything else wouldn't see any major economies of scale, and would abstract authority too much.
Creating a regional rapid transit agency doesn't need a new layer of governance. The basic solution would be to upload the subway to Metrolinx, and then download Metrolinx to the relevant municipalities. All of the municipalities and the Province could own shares in a joint stock company and in turn appoint a board of directors which operates the agency. That's pretty much how SBB is operated. The tricky issue would be how are non-rail routes managed in terms of 416-905 borders.
I'm very leery of these concepts like the 'Golden Horseshoe' or 'GTHA.' Hamilton and Pickering are not in the same city and shouldn't share a municipal government. A city is about more than urban contiguity. Even in the most restrained definitions of the horseshoe you're talking about an area bigger than Belgium.
Creating a regional rapid transit agency doesn't need a new layer of governance. The basic solution would be to upload the subway to Metrolinx, and then download Metrolinx to the relevant municipalities. All of the municipalities and the Province could own shares in a joint stock company and in turn appoint a board of directors which operates the agency. That's pretty much how SBB is operated. The tricky issue would be how are non-rail routes managed in terms of 416-905 borders.
I'm very leery of these concepts like the 'Golden Horseshoe' or 'GTHA.' Hamilton and Pickering are not in the same city and shouldn't share a municipal government. A city is about more than urban contiguity. Even in the most restrained definitions of the horseshoe you're talking about an area bigger than Belgium.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
yes.
Transit is definitely a big one, but I think there are others that work best when implemented at a regional level. Specifically, methods of taxation that reduce the dependence on the property tax, that work best regionally, like a regional sales tax. Also things like road tolls, major works projects, and a cohesive development plan. Curbing sprawl doesn't really do much good when you have one area that's trying to increase density, while another is building low density 60s style subdivisions. Upload the responsibility of subdivision approval to Metro, and you get a set of standards that are applied consistently across the board.
Personally, I'm a bit cautious of the idea of having Metrolinx under the control of municipalities that have no political link to each other other than Metrolinx. The idea of 'owning stock' in Metrolinx is an interesting one though. I just like the idea of having a single political entity in control of it, as opposed to just a series of municipalities.
And I know it's a big task and it would be a pretty big area, but I think having a clear division of powers and responsibilities between the upper and lower levels will keep things straight. Brampton shouldn't be deciding whether or not Jarvis gets bike lanes, but I also don't think that multi-billion dollar rapid transit projects that affect more than just that city should be subject to the whims of a single mayor.
Likewise, I don't think that a 905 municipality going gangbusters with new subdivisions should be free of responsibility when it causes cities further inwards to have to upgrade their road infrastructure in order to handle the increased volume. The reality is that there are some problems that spill beyond a single municipalities' borders, and there are some solutions that lie beyond the prevue of a single municipality to solve.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
In terms of division of transit, I'd like to see the following:
Metrolinx would be responsible for development and maintenance of Freeways (Excluding the 407) GO Rail, GO Bus, Rapid Transit, Inter-Agency/Rapid LRT (excluding Local Streetcar), and the coordination between agencies for BRT Service for the GTHA.
Local transit agencies would be combined based mostly on division of urban areas:
TTC + Brampton Transit + MiWay + YRT + Oakville Transit = Expanded Greater TTC (Possible addition of rest of Halton Region excluding Burlington)
Burlington Transit + HSR + Town of Grimsby (No Transit Agency) = "Metro Hamilton Transit"
Grand River Transit + Guelph Transit = Expanded "Grand River Transit"
St Catharines + Niagara Falls Transit + Welland Transit + Niagara Region Transit (Inter-Municipal Bus Service)= Consolidated Niagara Region Transit
Brantford Transit > Brant Transit (Expanded to serve Paris, Ontario)
Durham Region Transit = No Change
Additionally, I'd also like to see Metrolinx become a body which manages and enforces general urban development policies, design guidelines, and performance targets for each of it's member municipalities. The municipality would then decide how they would want to meet those development targets and would be responsible to Metrolinx who in turn would be responsible to the Province. Metrolinx could also have the authority to collect road tolls and impose additional tax within the GTHA to subsidize service. I'd personally love to get GTA highways (and GO Transit for that matter) out of the hands of the MTO whose only goals seem to be the development of highways and the licensing of drivers.
Metrolinx would be responsible for development and maintenance of Freeways (Excluding the 407) GO Rail, GO Bus, Rapid Transit, Inter-Agency/Rapid LRT (excluding Local Streetcar), and the coordination between agencies for BRT Service for the GTHA.
Local transit agencies would be combined based mostly on division of urban areas:
TTC + Brampton Transit + MiWay + YRT + Oakville Transit = Expanded Greater TTC (Possible addition of rest of Halton Region excluding Burlington)
Burlington Transit + HSR + Town of Grimsby (No Transit Agency) = "Metro Hamilton Transit"
Grand River Transit + Guelph Transit = Expanded "Grand River Transit"
St Catharines + Niagara Falls Transit + Welland Transit + Niagara Region Transit (Inter-Municipal Bus Service)= Consolidated Niagara Region Transit
Brantford Transit > Brant Transit (Expanded to serve Paris, Ontario)
Durham Region Transit = No Change
Additionally, I'd also like to see Metrolinx become a body which manages and enforces general urban development policies, design guidelines, and performance targets for each of it's member municipalities. The municipality would then decide how they would want to meet those development targets and would be responsible to Metrolinx who in turn would be responsible to the Province. Metrolinx could also have the authority to collect road tolls and impose additional tax within the GTHA to subsidize service. I'd personally love to get GTA highways (and GO Transit for that matter) out of the hands of the MTO whose only goals seem to be the development of highways and the licensing of drivers.
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I agree with most of what you said, but I would rather see separate 'divisions' within Metrolinx for local transit, as opposed to leaving it to the municipalities. Why? Because like I said earlier, the rapid transit helps subsidize the local transit. Unless there will be some complex funding formula in place whereby Metrolinx gives money to municipalities to run the local transit system, I think it's best to just have everything under one roof.
These 'divisions' can function much like the ones you described above, only they are administered by Metrolinx. Perhaps something like GTA Central (Toronto), GTA North (Brampton, York Region), GTA East (Durham Region), GTA West (Mississauga, Halton), GHA (Hamilton & Area). A sub-agency within Metrolinx looking at specifically those regions, and in contact with city officials for input. Of course, Rapid Transit would be its own division.
I think we agree on most of the points you raised (freeways, GO rail, GO bus, rapid transit, LRT, BRT), I just think we have a slight difference on how we would like to see local transit implemented. Personally, I'm more of the all or nothing persuasion when it comes to this. I fear that if the rapid transit is decoupled from the local transit, that the near seamless integration between bus and subway that the TTC is famous for could be compromised. If they're all part of the same agency, they're more likely to be in sync.
Interesting. So you're proposing Metrolinx change from being just a transit agency to being a 'Planning Agency'? That's a very interesting idea. Biggest problem I see with that though is how will these plans be developed, and how can they be held politically accountable? For example, with the current set of Provincial plans, a new government can theoretically come in and rewrite them. This can be disastrous, but it can also potentially be beneficial, because it means the electorate can have a say in it. If the plan is being developed and implemented by a corporation, how does the public have any accountability in it? Would it still be a Provincial agency?
Now if such a corporation was an arm of a government like Metro, the avenue to affect change would be pretty clear. But if it's one Provincial agency in charge of so much, the path to change can become pretty convoluted. And I fear that an opportune Provincial candidate will use that convolution to their advantage, and propose drastic changes (ie eliminate the agency), instead of taking the rational approach and merely trying to tweak the policies.
Having so much authority in one place is advantageous because things can get done quickly and in a coordinated way, but the kill switch needs to be out of the hands of a single person or group of people (ie a new Premier and his/her cabinet). At least if Metrolinx were in the hands of something like Metro, a kill switch move is much less likely. Or perhaps the answer is in something like a split ownership of Metrolinx: 60% municipalities, 30% province, 10% federal. Anything to keep the kill switch out of the hands of a few people.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
I've thought about this a bit more, and if the (Greater) TTC is grown to include the entire subway network, then there would be no need to upgrade Rapid Transit, LRT, and BRT to the Metrolinx level as in most instances, there would be no rapid transit crossing an agency's boundary. So the TTC, Metro Hamilton Transit, Grand River Transit, ect. would operate as their own islands of service.
This way Metrolinx would only take over GO Transit as the Regional Rail/Intercity Bus Authority and Highways in the Greater Golden Horseshoe as well as acting as the Upper-Tier planning body for the GGH. They could even take over maintenance of the Gardiner and DVP from the City of Toronto if they wanted to.
I also really like the idea of creating divisions within the TTC as well for local route planning purposes, although I would tweak the boundaries a bit. Creating these divisions within a larger TTC would also ease the transition of the local transit agencies to become integrated wholly within the TTC. Each division would also maintain their own office in their respective municipalities for local route planning and transportation objectives.
A map of how I'd tweak the transit agency service areas can be found here.
It was my thought that Metrolinx would be a corporation owned by the member Regional Municipalities and that any infrastructure funding given by the Provincial or Federal governments to the member municipalities would receive review by Metrolinx. Metrolinx could also act as a lobbying body to the federal government on behalf of the GGH as well as providing the framework to generate it's own revenue through tolls, development charges, or a regional sales tax.
I would hope that Metrolinx would be able to coordinate infrastructure development in a similar way to the National Capital Commission does so in Ottawa, except with a more laissez-faire manner concerning local matters, and the 20/20 hindsight to not make the kind of planning mistakes that the NCC has made in Ottawa.
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We're definitely thinking along the same lines, but I think the main difference in our views right now is the issue of control. With the expanded TTC covering so many municipalities, the question then becomes who pays for it, and in what percentage? If Vaughan has to make funding cuts to the TTC, do those cuts exclusively affect local routes in Vaughan? Or do the other municipalities have to boost funding in order to maintain the status quo?
This could lead to a lot of infighting with respect to what each municipality thinks an 'appropriate service level' is, and how much to fund it. This could be solved in 2 ways:
1) Give Metrolinx it's own revenue generating power (sales tax, tolls, etc). This way it's financing is still being drawn from the constituent municipalities, but not from the municipal governments themselves. I would think that even an expanded TTC would have a hard time doing this, because it wouldn't be applied across the entire region, just where the TTC operates. This is why I think having the TTC operate under the umbrella of Metrolinx makes sense. You can maybe keep the TTC branding, but the TTC as a corporation would be funded by and be a subsidiary of Metrolinx (much in the way GO operates today).
2) Create Metro and give the municipalities a voice via Metro, which would control Metrolinx. This setup would just be a larger scale application of how the TTC was funded during the days of Metro Toronto.
To summarize, I think that one of these three options is preferable:
1) Have Metrolinx remain a Provincial agency, and merge (similar to the map that you proposed) and then upload the various transit agencies to become subsidiaries of Metrolinx (again, much like GO is today). Take the funding responsibility away from the municipalities, and let Metrolinx raise it's own revenue across the GTHA. This would free up property tax revenue at the municipal level to either be used on other things, or to be given away in the form of tax reductions.
2) Same as above, only Metrolinx no longer be owned by the Province, instead by the constituent municipalities. This has the potential to make Metrolinx lack a clear direction though, because there is no single political will guiding it.
3) The Metro Toronto model with Metrolinx being the new TTC, in charge of everything.
The former would affect just transit and transportation, and leave current government structures in place. The latter would completely transform the political landscape of the GTA, and affect pretty much everything. Just a question of how bold you want to be, and what problems you want to solve.
The NCC model is an interesting one to use. If Metrolinx were to be kept at the Provincial level, it would in fact be pretty similar to the NCC. Having it owned by the municipalities though may complicate things a bit, although it is definitely an idea worthy of further consideration.
Although if that was the case, I would think that the name Metrolinx should only apply to the transportation arm of the corporation, with the larger entity being called something more general, like the Greater Toronto Planning Commission, or something like that.
EDIT: I did a short org chart of what I'm talking about.
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Long Island Mike
Senior Member
Metro Government: Making a comeback?
Everyone: Can a Metro government proposal be brought before voters as a referendum?
Remembering the six-borough Metro government it would be interesting if a four borough Metro government was created
from the united City of Toronto similar to what had existed before 1998...
Would a large new Metro region-wide government affect both the cities of Hamilton and Toronto?
There are functions like Metrolinx that should be a regional effort along with local governments and the Province of Ontario...
This government should be something that most can agree with because the us-versus-them mentality held by some is
counter-productive and gets nothing accomplished...
As some have mentioned the old Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto worked and if a majority of voters approve this
the current united City of Toronto can be returned to the previous Metro government...
At least in Ontario changes in regional governments have occurred occasionally in the last 60 years noting Metro Toronto's
1954 creation...For example in New York State there has been thought like Staten Island/Richmond County seceding from
the City of New York and in Suffolk County on Long Island the five East End towns have proposed to secede and create
Peconic County...in each case the legal process would be quite extensive and financially they can not afford the County
services they would need to provide...In Staten Island's case there would be large increases in property taxes to try and
make up what they get from the City of New York...and other changes such as for transit services that I note next...
Seceding from NYC would affect Staten Island's entire mass transit system in which they would have to create their own bus
system to replace NYC Transit and services like the Staten Island Railway and the Staten Island Ferry would note much higher
fares to replace the NYC subsidy that each receives...The SI Ferry is operated by the NYC DOT and currently charges no fare...
For a comparable merger to what created the current City of Toronto in 1998 the five Boroughs would have to be consolidated
and their government services like Courts and District Attorneys merged...and most importantly five New York State Counties
would be dissolved...Again the legal ramifications would be huge and a unified city of over eight million may be too large for a
merger like Toronto's to work...I do not think that there will be any changes to NY City's government boundaries anytime at
least in our lifetimes...
Another question I have is will changes like these affect taxes that are levied and paid by Toronto area residents?
That as mentioned is one of the prime reasons that the NYS changes I mentioned will not occur...
Ontario and Toronto has an advantage because governments like the 1954 formed Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto can be
changed and updated with the times as they need be...Perhaps Metro's time has come back and it is time to break up the 1998
unified City of Toronto...
LI MIKE
Everyone: Can a Metro government proposal be brought before voters as a referendum?
Remembering the six-borough Metro government it would be interesting if a four borough Metro government was created
from the united City of Toronto similar to what had existed before 1998...
Would a large new Metro region-wide government affect both the cities of Hamilton and Toronto?
There are functions like Metrolinx that should be a regional effort along with local governments and the Province of Ontario...
This government should be something that most can agree with because the us-versus-them mentality held by some is
counter-productive and gets nothing accomplished...
As some have mentioned the old Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto worked and if a majority of voters approve this
the current united City of Toronto can be returned to the previous Metro government...
At least in Ontario changes in regional governments have occurred occasionally in the last 60 years noting Metro Toronto's
1954 creation...For example in New York State there has been thought like Staten Island/Richmond County seceding from
the City of New York and in Suffolk County on Long Island the five East End towns have proposed to secede and create
Peconic County...in each case the legal process would be quite extensive and financially they can not afford the County
services they would need to provide...In Staten Island's case there would be large increases in property taxes to try and
make up what they get from the City of New York...and other changes such as for transit services that I note next...
Seceding from NYC would affect Staten Island's entire mass transit system in which they would have to create their own bus
system to replace NYC Transit and services like the Staten Island Railway and the Staten Island Ferry would note much higher
fares to replace the NYC subsidy that each receives...The SI Ferry is operated by the NYC DOT and currently charges no fare...
For a comparable merger to what created the current City of Toronto in 1998 the five Boroughs would have to be consolidated
and their government services like Courts and District Attorneys merged...and most importantly five New York State Counties
would be dissolved...Again the legal ramifications would be huge and a unified city of over eight million may be too large for a
merger like Toronto's to work...I do not think that there will be any changes to NY City's government boundaries anytime at
least in our lifetimes...
Another question I have is will changes like these affect taxes that are levied and paid by Toronto area residents?
That as mentioned is one of the prime reasons that the NYS changes I mentioned will not occur...
Ontario and Toronto has an advantage because governments like the 1954 formed Municipality of Metropolitan Toronto can be
changed and updated with the times as they need be...Perhaps Metro's time has come back and it is time to break up the 1998
unified City of Toronto...
LI MIKE
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Would rather have Metrolinx become similar to TfL in authority, responsibility and funding.
That would accomplish more than creating another layer of government.
I do believe that Metrolinx should take over the subway system and leave the streetcars, lrts and buses to the TTC. The subway is a regional service today and should be properly integrated into the GO rail and bus network. Just like London Overground and Underground.
Metrolinx also needs to be given responsiblity for managing major roads developments (like replacing the Gardiner).
That would accomplish more than creating another layer of government.
I do believe that Metrolinx should take over the subway system and leave the streetcars, lrts and buses to the TTC. The subway is a regional service today and should be properly integrated into the GO rail and bus network. Just like London Overground and Underground.
Metrolinx also needs to be given responsiblity for managing major roads developments (like replacing the Gardiner).
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diminutive
Active Member
Though, determining which routes are 'regional' is quite arbitrary. Routes like Jane or Don Mills clearly have the potential to be regional. If the subway is uploaded, I'm not sure it makes THAT much sense for huge chunks of the surface network to remain in local hands.
dunkalunk
Senior Member
In a TfL scenario, could you see the province downloading the 400-series highways in the GTHA to Metrolinx?
diminutive
Active Member
Having just read through Canadian Urban Regions' section on TO, I'm perhaps a bit more sympathetic. Perhaps there is more for a GTHA tier than simply transit.
I still think the concept of GTAH as a coherent 'city' is problematic. The underlying rational, that the GTHA/Horseshoe is a contiguous urban space with economic interdependence, seems facile. The entire province/country/world is economically interdependent now so, baring a huge difference in scale, that is true yet insufficient. By urban contiguity the entire Eastern American seaboard would be a 'City.'
Ultimately, it seems like the Province is completely capable of enacting required legislation. The Places to Grow Act is pretty decent. Arguably, a GTAH tiered municipality would be more reluctant to adapt measures like that due to the majority of exurban municipalities. The biggest failure of the status quo is the lack of regional transit planning and an appropriate financing model to back it up. Again, I'm not sure about a regional government dominated by suburban/exurban being excited to launch a whole bunch of tolls and taxes to fund a DRL. No more likely than the Province doing it.
It's not totally unprecedented. It's how Swiss Rail works (owned by the Federal & Canton Govts). It's basically what a Crown Corp is, but with multiple levels of governmental ownership. Translink has something similar.
It would require a depoliticization of transit; relevant shareholders would periodically set priorities, longterm funding levels and appoint directors, but the actual operation of the agency would be arms-length.
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
No...the point of Metro was to be a compromise between what the city of Toronto wanted....and what the various surrounding suburbs wanted. Between 1912 and the end of the war, Toronto stopped annexing suburbs because the added cost of supplying these suburbs with city services far outweighed any benefit to the city. It was only in the post war era that creating metro made sense.
For the same reason, Toronto wouldn't want anything to do with the 905, because the cost would far outweigh any benefit.
Well, in some respects, they do.
It isn't the same problem at all. First of all, the "boroughs" were not created in 1954....they were created later in the process. Secondly, the Regional Municipalities are not York County (and they aren't the equivalent of Metro either). Thirdly, the municipalities of the 905 do not require the City of Toronto to supply them with city services....they already have them. But do to their inept urban planning, they are frightfully inadequate and inefficient.
All the 905 wants is for Toronto to subsidize their services. And why in the world would we want to do that?
.
It only sounds ridiculous, because you haven't scratched the surface to see why things are so different on either side of this "imaginary" line. Trust me...the last thing you would ever want to do, is dilute the TTC. It barely survived having to supply the entire Metro area back in the day. Make it just another part of a GTA-wide and it could not subsidize it. The service the TTC now delivers would never be able to be maintained.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yes. And I would expect Metrolinx to toll them....or at least the 401/403 Express and HOV lanes.
Not just major roads. Just like TfL has the Public Carriage Office, I'd like to see Metrolinx take over taxi licensing as well. Have the agency be responsible for all non-local transport issues. It's moronic that a cab licensed in Pickering can drop a fare off in Scarborough and can't pick one up outbound. It's moronic that cab companies harrass drivers who use the Hailo app. Etc. A lot of issues that could be solved with a regional taxi licensing system. And even more issues that could be solved with a real, regional transport authority.
People slam Metrolinx. But if you look at the situation, I'd argue that they've done more to put forward sensible and wholistic transportation planning than anybody else. The real stumbling blocks seem to arise from the limits place on them with respect to jurisdiction, authorities, funding, etc.
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