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robmausser said:
Curious if anyone has any knowledge or theories on how safe the Smarttrack Stations are?

I really do like this part of GO-RER. Smarttrack was a flawed goal but the 5 or so stations we have planned on GO-RER will benefit Torontonians greatly, I believe.

With Tory out, how safe are these stations? How easily could an incoming mayor cancel these stations? Or has the ink dried on the contracts and it would be a really bad move.
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The project is in Provincial hands now, and the City co-funding agreement has been signed. Procurement has been underway for a long time, and I’d expect contract award within the next few months. I doubt there is a risk of cancellation - the market would be quite upset.
 
A report to Executive Ctte next week sends out alarm bells.

The already grossly inflated project budget of 1.463B for a small number of above-ground rail stations ( A station budget worthy of current Toronto deep-buried subway station projects) is set to go up, substantially.

The City is looking to request the province to pick-up the tab for the increase of 234M.

Should the province say 'No', City staff want to return to Ctte/Council with 'options' as in, there is no way the City feels it can foot this bill.


This is very time-sensitive, so we will know the answer shortly:

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Recommendations:

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Was a reason given for the sudden dramatic cost increase? I'm very curious as to what is so expensive (generally speaking now) about building a few above ground stations...
 
Towered said:
Was a reason given for the sudden dramatic cost increase? I'm very curious as to what is so expensive (generally speaking now) about building a few above ground stations...
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The SmartTrack program is expensive, but it's scope is also a lot more than just five GO stations.

off the top of my head, it includes:
- Broadview Avenue extension south to Lakeshore and associated grade separation
- St. Clair West road expansions, including the widening of the St. Clair underpass, Gunns Road extension and underpass, and Davenport Road extension
- Finch Avenue grade separation

These elements alone are probably over 1/3 of the cost and strictly speaking are more so roads projects than transit stations.

East Harbour is also a pretty large station in scope. It'll be the second or third busiest GO station in the network upon completion, it's not a regular old GO station with 2 platforms and a canopy.

Bloor-Lansdowne is the only station which is really a "normal" station with minimal additional procurement or elements.
 
innsertnamehere said:
The SmartTrack program is expensive, but it's scope is also a lot more than just five GO stations.

off the top of my head, it includes:
- Broadview Avenue extension south to Lakeshore and associated grade separation
- St. Clair West road expansions, including the widening of the St. Clair underpass, Gunns Road extension and underpass, and Davenport Road extension
- Finch Avenue grade separation

These elements alone are probably over 1/3 of the cost and strictly speaking are more so roads projects than transit stations.

East Harbour is also a pretty large station in scope. It'll be the second or third busiest GO station in the network upon completion, it's not a regular old GO station with 2 platforms and a canopy.

Bloor-Lansdowne is the only station which is really a "normal" station with minimal additional procurement or elements.
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It is true that there are intermingled other projects being swallowed up this budget, as if often the case, and this does confuse apples to apples comparisons in terms of station budget.

While I concur that that the Finch grade separation is rolled in, and some of the St. Clair related improvements are; I know the City has an independent budget for the Broadview extension.

I assume the underpass is rolled into a station budget, though whether that should be charged to Smartrak vs the O/L is a fair question.
 
How much of the East Harbour OL station work is in the City's work scope is up for question as well, and also any related grading work along the Kingston sub.

There is very little transparency in this whole thing as well which makes it hard to discern exactly who is paying for what and what is in which contract, especially since there is so much overlapping work between the million different transit projects happening in the city over the next decade.

The Broadview Avenue underpass will be by far the largest cost of the extension, so even if the physical road is not included, that's probably only a fraction of the total extension cost.
 
A few things to note:
  • If the Province won’t pay the cost increases, it looks like Bloor-Lansdowne gets cut.
  • St. Clair Old Weston now only has 2 platforms serving 3 tracks
  • King-Liberty now is just one island platform serving 2 tracks
I am not super concerned with the platform cuts - it may be the result of the OnCorr development process and the realization that you can have fewer platforms for local trains to serve based on the emerging service patterns and track utilization.
 
One has to assume that a similar reckoning is happening within GO Expansion as its own programs encounter these cost escalations. We may see its pace and targets change also.

The dearth of construction trades may place an absolute limit on how much transit we can build. (Cancelling a certain highway project might free up some people, too).

One also has to ask whether all the bells and whistles of the stations' designs are all needed on day one, and how much can be saved by limiting the construction to a very austere station design. No platform structures, for instance, just basic shelters. Maybe ML can plant some of its replacement trees here instead of erecting steelwork. The agency that started out copying exactly what GO did is certainly able to set the benchmark these days.

- Paul

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blacksquirrels said:
was a reason given for why Toronto is paying for it?
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Because Metrolinx and the province didn't include these stations in their GO-RER proposal. It was a request from the city of Toronto.

As far as how Bloor-Landsdowne got lumped in with Smarttrack through, I really don't know. That seemed kinda slimy, I thought the province promised that station for doing the Davenport Diamand bridge.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
A few things to note:
  • If the Province won’t pay the cost increases, it looks like Bloor-Lansdowne gets cut.
  • St. Clair Old Weston now only has 2 platforms serving 3 tracks
  • King-Liberty now is just one island platform serving 2 tracks
I am not super concerned with the platform cuts - it may be the result of the OnCorr development process and the realization that you can have fewer platforms for local trains to serve based on the emerging service patterns and track utilization.
Click to expand...

The Bloor-Landsdowne thing really is confusing to me. I thought the province essentially promised that station for doing the Davenport bridge. I don't know how or why the city got tabbed for paying that.
 
Only in Toronto would authorities even consider building what is effectively a new transit line without connecting it to an existing intersecting subway route. It's like they want transit to fail.
 
facepalming_brooklynite said:
Only in Toronto would authorities even consider building what is effectively a new transit line without connecting it to an existing intersecting subway route. It's like they want transit to fail.
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? SmartTrack isn’t a new transit line, it’s just GO stations which will serve lines which do connect to subway stations at other GO stations on the routes.

In terms of the SmartTrack stations, Bloor-Lansdowne is a short walk away from Line 2, East Harbour will directly link to the Ontario Line, and St.Clair Old Weston will connect to the 512 right of way streetcar.

Since GO is essentially becoming a surface subway, SmartTrack is largely about getting rapid transit to areas without stations right now. Is SmartTrack as ambitious as initially proposed? No, largely because GO RER displaced it. Is it still nice to get a bunch of new GO stations? Yes.
 
SaugeenJunction said:
? SmartTrack isn’t a new transit line, it’s just GO stations which will serve lines which do connect to subway stations at other GO stations on the routes.

In terms of the SmartTrack stations, Bloor-Lansdowne is a short walk away from Line 2, East Harbour will directly link to the Ontario Line, and St.Clair Old Weston will connect to the 512 right of way streetcar.

Since GO is essentially becoming a surface subway, SmartTrack is largely about getting rapid transit to areas without stations right now. Is SmartTrack as ambitious as initially proposed? No, largely because GO RER displaced it. Is it still nice to get a bunch of new GO stations? Yes.
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My comment was meant specifically with regard to Bloor-Lansdowne and the fact that the city seems to be entertaining the idea that this station is not really necessary. If it were to be scrapped, GO Barrie would not connect to line 2 (I know the proposed connection is less than ideal, but it would be there).
The Barrie GO will effectively become a new transit line, due to the upgrade to all-day two-way service.

Meanwhile, the city has no shortage of money when it comes to rebuilding an underused portion of the Gardiner.
 
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