[digi]

".... Sodium, Cl and Pb contents of snow,

Petition the city to stop dumping salt on the roads...you know, the source of this sodium , chlorine, and probably lead.

 

[nfitz]

".... Sodium, Cl and Pb contents of snow, meltwater and soil from ten Metropolitan Toronto snow dumps were determined. Contaminant concentrations were related to the source of the snow. Although initially very high, Na and Cl concentrations in the snow decreased with time while piled at the dump site. Conversely, Pb content increased with time as the snow gradually melted and the Pb-containing particulates accumulated on the snow surface .... Although some Na and Cl is leached from the soil during the summer months, much of the salt and most of the Pb remains to accumulate from year to year. Adjacent to the snowpiles, the soil contained contaminant concentrations that were higher than control samples, possibly as a result of the movement of meltwater runoff ..."

( But that's just The Ontario Department of Transmission Environment - how could they possibly know more than us, right? The more you dig into these dumps, the more you find .... )

So what's your point? All seems very minor to me. We're talking about a former Air Force base; whatever leaches out of a pile of snow is nothing compared to the groundwater plumes of TCE I'd think would be coming off that facility!

 

[andomano]

As far as the Downsview site goes, I'd be far more worried about my safety driving down the Allen, at the mercy of some irresponsible driver trying to video tape while driving, than I am about any threat from the melting snow.

Agreed.

The number of accidents on the Allen, per year, likely has a greater environmental effect than that of the snow dump.

 

[activeday]

These dumps are massive - and I am concerned about the long reaching and long term effects they pose. As more people become aware, I believe that this will become a major issue in what was supposed to be an environmentally friendly city ....

It's interesting .... out of 1600 people who have visited this thread - only 6 people have disagreed with my concerns. Of those six, one or two people seem to have used up the most real estate. I expect that most other people agree with me --- but for fear of a few bullies --- are worried about posting their comments.


People do not post when others are being bullied or intimidated. Each time I post, I know someone will take some time to "quote" each word - I don't mind, but I can see how others would be less likely to show their support in such an environment.

Also .... the argument of "give a better solution" is also not only unfair, but shows the type of one sided thinking that got us into this environmental stew. It negates the fact that the person that is reporting the problem neither created it, nor supported it's existance. Of course, that is the intent, no? By saying "Give me a better solution" you hope that the person will feel initimated by statments such as that and simply stop raising the concern.

Well, now back to the Toronto Service Model .....

let's spin the wheel and guess where we are in the Toronto Service Model today ... ah, the posts above show we're back at:

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.

( If someone would like to turn this into a chart, it might be useful for other posts that raise a concern about dumps in Toronto such as these )

--------------------------
The Toronto Service Model
--------------------------

a/ A lot lot lot of writing about how wrong the person was for raising the concern.
Please refer to the last several posts.

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Please refer to the last several posts.

c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Please refer to the last several posts.

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.
Please refer to the last several posts.

---> Note to self: We are now about to get to this point here --->

e/ The "last straw" statement such as "I just cannot believe how un-enlightened you are to my way of thinking".
Please refer to the last several posts.

f/ Repeat to part "A"
Please refer to the last several posts.

 

[andomano]

^^ Where do we begin...?

- this is becoming borderline spam.

 

[activeday]

Unfounded comments about accidents on the Allen Road are okay ---- but concerns about dumps are not?

I would question / debate which constitutes Spam - based on an accepted definition, your last post had nothing to do with the original topic.

With all respect, if you cannot "stick" to the topic I would ask that you contribute your thoughs and ideas elsewhere.

 

[nfitz]

These dumps are massive - and I am concerned about the long reaching and long term effects they pose. As more people become aware, I believe that this will become a major issue in what was supposed to be an environmentally friendly city ....

It's interesting .... out of 1600 people who have visited this thread - only 6 people have disagreed with my concerns. Of those six, one or two people seem to have used up the most real estate. I expect that most other people agree with me --- but for fear of a few bullies --- are worried about posting their comments.


People do not post when others are being bullied or intimidated. Each time I post, I know someone will take some time to "quote" each word - I don't mind, but I can see how others would be less likely to show their support in such an environment.

Also .... the argument of "give a better solution" is also not only unfair, but shows the type of one sided thinking that got us into this environmental stew. It negates the fact that the person that is reporting the problem neither created it, nor supported it's existance. Of course, that is the intent, no? By saying "Give me a better solution" you hope that the person will feel initimated by statments such as that and simply stop raising the concern.

Well, now back to the Toronto Service Model .....

let's spin the wheel and guess where we are in the Toronto Service Model today ... ah, the posts above show we're back at:

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.

( If someone would like to turn this into a chart, it might be useful for other posts that raise a concern about dumps in Toronto such as these )

--------------------------
The Toronto Service Model
--------------------------

a/ A lot lot lot of writing about how wrong the person was for raising the concern.
Please refer to the last several posts.

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Please refer to the last several posts.

c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Please refer to the last several posts.

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.
Please refer to the last several posts.

---> Note to self: We are now about to get to this point here --->

e/ The "last straw" statement such as "I just cannot believe how un-enlightened you are to my way of thinking".
Please refer to the last several posts.

f/ Repeat to part "A"
Please refer to the last several posts.

Speaking of bullying, perhaps you could try not posting in bright colours and large fonts!

And perhaps you could just try and make simple points that address the post that is made. You've done nothing to address any of my points, and you just prattle on with these NIMBY-like posts.

The bottom-line here is that your dead-ass wrong, and making a mountain out of a snow-hill. Of course there are some minor pollutants here ... just as they are along the side of any road during the winter. But could you just stick to the simple facts?

 

[activeday]

I understand this is a painful issue. I also understand it would be easier to walk away.

If the issue does not affect you - as it does not appear to - then I respectfully ask that you find something else to target your agression at. Clearly your tone is not one I would wish to engage in any sort of discussion.

These dumps do affect my neighborhood. My neighborhood is also Toronto.

Based on previous posts, there are two more 'regulars' that will also pitch in over the next 30 minutes to the comments that you just made.

They will then say "this issue has been resolved because we said it was".

Unfortunately, it's not resolved, the concerns have only been raised, and the community only now starting to become involved.

 

[spider]

As one of the 1600 who did not reply to your ridiculous ravings let me assure you my silence is not to be construed as agreeing with anything you have said but that your mission is just too silly to get involved in.

I am sure you are delighted to have me put you down as that is really what you are trying to generate here isn't it? You're welcome.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

It's interesting .... out of 1600 people who have visited this thread - only 6 people have disagreed with my concerns. Of those six, one or two people seem to have used up the most real estate. I expect that most other people agree with me --- but for fear of a few bullies --- are worried about posting their comments.

I suspect that many have stayed away as it seems too much like an exercise in futility. Does there exist a fix that doesn't wreak its own measure of environmental havoc? Who knows? I agree that contaminants are bad and that we should avoid them if at all possible. However, this is but one issue of very many that face the city -- what priority should we put on this? It seems that there is a lot more work that needs to be done before you can convince the general public that it is a problem that can be solved efficiently.

If we have offered no answers here, it may simply be that there are none to be found among us. Maybe you would be better off asking in a forum for environmental scientists, or soil remediation experts, or what have you. I certainly don't know the answer, but my gut feeling is that this is a bit of a wild goose chase. I could be wrong, but I just prefer to focus my efforts on problems that we know we can solve efficiently. You cannot expect us all to prioritize exactly as you do, so it is not surprising that people ask you for some kind of a plan before diverting themselves from whatever it is they're doing to join in your quest.

 

[activeday]

I am honestly surpsied and saddened at the cruelness and the bitterness of these posts. I now understand why people so seldom raise a concern in Toronto.

If the issue doesn't affect "you", then "you" condemn the person that raised the issue.

Sad, really.

 

[activeday]

I suspect that many have stayed away as it seems too much like an exercise in futility. Does there exist a fix that doesn't wreak its own measure of environmental havoc? Who knows? I agree that contaminants are bad and that we should avoid them if at all possible. However, this is but one issue of very many that face the city -- what priority should we put on this? It seems that there is a lot more work that needs to be done before you can convince the general public that it is a problem that can be solved efficiently.

If we have offered no answers here, it may simply be that there are none to be found among us. Maybe you would be better off asking in a forum for environmental scientists, or soil remediation experts, or what have you. I certainly don't know the answer, but my gut feeling is that this is a bit of a wild goose chase. I could be wrong, but I just prefer to focus my efforts on problems that we know we can solve efficiently. You cannot expect us all to prioritize exactly as you do, so it is not surprising that people ask you for some kind of a plan before diverting themselves from whatever it is they're doing to join in your quest.

Thank you - your post makes absolute sense and I thank you for wording it so eloquently.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

activeday:

While I do agree that there is environmental issues with snow dumps - is there anything about them that justify immediate intervention, vis-a-vis other environmental priorities (like CSOs, for example?).

And just because a city is behind in certain environmental issues doesn't mean in general the city isn't "green". And if there isn't at least some city level concerns about the dumps - why would they even bother to commission these reports?

AoD

 

[activeday]

activeday:
While I do agree that there is environmental issues with snow dumps - is there anything about them that justify immediate intervention, vis-a-vis other environmental priorities (like CSOs, for example?).
AoD

If you go to this Powerpoint by the City Of Toronto:
http://www.ogra.org/lib/db2file.asp?fileid=9199

There is a suggestion that they don't want the dumps near rivers. No problem - but then why put them right over unprotected land, that is not only next to a park but also slated for housing?

"However, 4 of the 10 sites were within sensitive river valleys which several Councillors and Environmentalists wanted ...."

Based on the City's Own Powerpoint slide - what was it that the councillors did or said that possibly kept the dumps out of their ridings? Why weren't all councillors permitted to raise similar concerns about their ridings? If environmentalists can stop in one location, what is it about Downsview that makes it "okay" ??????

And just because a city is behind in certain environmental issues doesn't mean in general the city isn't "green". And if there isn't at least some city level concerns about the dumps - why would they even bother to commission these reports?
AoD

Agreed - but then after the report, the city isn't following it's own guidelines:

"Landscaping around sites to improve visual buffering" - based on the Downsview location - the landscaping is "sad", if nothing else. If you are going to do the report, and pick a site, at least follow through on your recommendations .....

As a minimum:

a/ Put the correct "floor" under the snow to avoid ground contamination.
b/ Put the right "visual buffers" around the site.
c/ Let the public know what you are doing.

 

[nfitz]

I understand this is a painful issue.

I'm don't really think that you do understand the issue at all, as I see very little pain.

If the issue does not affect you - as it does not appear to - then I respectfully ask that you find something else to target your agression at.

??????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????!!!!!!!!!!

Target my agression? After your posts? Good grief. Of course the issue effects me. I live in Toronto - where do you think my snow goes?

Clearly your tone is not one I would wish to engage in any sort of discussion.

???????????!!!!!!!!!!! My tone?? The only tone I have used is black - your the one who has been trying to utilize the rainbow here. And as for discussion, I've made several posts pointing out that this is not a big issue, and you've ignored them.

Unfortunately, it's not resolved, the concerns have only been raised, and the community only now starting to become involved.

I just don't see the issue here. These things have been around for a century. Why are you concerned about this? Impacts will be minimal compared to what must be underneath the old airport ... not to mention the Bombardier facility.