[micheal_can]

Here in Northern ON, we are still digging out of the snowmagedon that saw places like where I live get almost 3 feet, over 80cm. Highways 11, 17, 69, 129, 144, and others were closed during the storm and some did not open for 2 days. There is a bill to change how the highways in Northern ON get plowed, to align them with the standards of the 400 series highways.

Making Northern Ontario Highways Safer Act, 2022

Bill 43 from Parliament 43 Session 1 of the Legislative Assembly of Ontario: Making Northern Ontario Highways Safer Act, 2022.

www.ola.org

There was a significant storm that hit the GTA this winter in January. We any 400 series highways closed?

If this amount hit the GTA, how long would it be expected that the highways would be closed after the storm? Would 2 days be realistic?

 

[Towered]

Oh please...

 

[innsertnamehere]

I'll put it this way - Highway 401 handles more cars in an hour than Highway 11 or 17 handle in a week.

Closing Highway 17 for two days has the same level of traffic impact as a closure of the 401 does for about 20-30 minutes. An accident in evening rush hour on the 401 would result in more cumulative travel-time delays than closing Highway 17 would for a week.

That's all you really need to know about why one of those two roads seems to get higher priority..

 

[micheal_can]

I'll put it this way - Highway 401 handles more cars in an hour than Highway 11 or 17 handle in a week.

Closing Highway 17 for two days has the same level of traffic impact as a closure of the 401 does for about 20-30 minutes. An accident in evening rush hour on the 401 would result in more cumulative travel-time delays than closing Highway 17 would for a week.

That's all you really need to know about why one of those two roads seems to get higher priority..

Anything out west in Canada coming to the GTA on a truck has to pass along either 11 or 17.

And this is more about if the bill passes, what would those highways see in terms of closures.

 

[just east of the creek]

I'll put it this way - Highway 401 handles more cars in an hour than Highway 11 or 17 handle in a week.

Closing Highway 17 for two days has the same level of traffic impact as a closure of the 401 does for about 20-30 minutes. An accident in evening rush hour on the 401 would result in more cumulative travel-time delays than closing Highway 17 would for a week.

That's all you really need to know about why one of those two roads seems to get higher priority..

HWY's 11 & 17 in certain areas of the province hold a unique category as The Trans Canada Highway, and along with the railways, the logistics connections between east and west.

However they are not a 400 series highway in the same context as the QEW or the 401.

And regardless of classification with this opposition failed bill, a snowfall event of the one experienced in NE Ontario recently, or some of the previous events in NW Ontario this winter, would have had a severe and limiting impact on the availability of any 400 series highway anywhere.

This bill is pure political make beleive by the opposition party.

(And I am on record, from experience, for advancing improvements to northern highways, keying on 11 and 17, whether they be signage, lighting, equipment, expansion, driver training standards, commercial vehicle standards, personal vehicle standards etc)

 

[lenaitch]

As much as Michael would like to make this about a war of the North vs. South, the reality is, as some of you have pointed out, the truck-borne commerce on the 400-series highways, particular 401, 402 and the QEW, is order of magnitude higher than the northern routes. It is disingenuous to say that the 400-series highways are never closed due to weather. Without data-mining, I can think of several closures on both the 400 and 401 this winter that were a combination of weather and/or collision related. I can recall in fairly recent memory of Hwy 402 being closed and stranded motorists having to be rescued at least twice.

It is difficult to compare the recent snow storm that much of northern Ontario experienced with early storms in the south without knowing rate of snowfall (which I have no intention of researching). 50cm over a day or two is much different than 50cm in a matter of hours. Thankfully, we in the North Bay area dodged much of that. It is very rare, but not unheard of, that maintenance crews can't keep up with sheer accumulation; wind is the bigger culprit.

This is not to say that I don't support improved winter maintenance standards for major northern routes to mirror those in the south. However, this is not to suggest that even improved standards would eliminate winter weather-related closures. Sometimes, Mother Nature wins. Anybody who has frequented southwestern Ontario, southern Georgian Bay or the lee side of Lake Superior knows this.

I think I also mentioned before, somewhere, that I support the initiatives recently announced by the Government; although I don't think they go far enough in terms of commercial motor vehicle licencing standards and highway maintenance. Incremental improvements will go a long way to improve matters in a more timely and cheaper way than the wet-dream of twinning a few thousand kilometers of highway.

 

[micheal_can]

As much as Michael would like to make this about a war of the North vs. South, the reality is, as some of you have pointed out, the truck-borne commerce on the 400-series highways, particular 401, 402 and the QEW, is order of magnitude higher than the northern routes. It is disingenuous to say that the 400-series highways are never closed due to weather. Without data-mining, I can think of several closures on both the 400 and 401 this winter that were a combination of weather and/or collision related. I can recall in fairly recent memory of Hwy 402 being closed and stranded motorists having to be rescued at least twice.

It is difficult to compare the recent snow storm that much of northern Ontario experienced with early storms in the south without knowing rate of snowfall (which I have no intention of researching). 50cm over a day or two is much different than 50cm in a matter of hours. Thankfully, we in the North Bay area dodged much of that. It is very rare, but not unheard of, that maintenance crews can't keep up with sheer accumulation; wind is the bigger culprit.

This is not to say that I don't support improved winter maintenance standards for major northern routes to mirror those in the south. However, this is not to suggest that even improved standards would eliminate winter weather-related closures. Sometimes, Mother Nature wins. Anybody who has frequented southwestern Ontario, southern Georgian Bay or the lee side of Lake Superior knows this.

I think I also mentioned before, somewhere, that I support the initiatives recently announced by the Government; although I don't think they go far enough in terms of commercial motor vehicle licencing standards and highway maintenance. Incremental improvements will go a long way to improve matters in a more timely and cheaper way than the wet-dream of twinning a few thousand kilometers of highway.

This is not a war between the 2 areas. It is more a question of whether anything could have been done or was it the nature of that storm. That storm dropped over 80cm in 24 hours. At least we didn't need to call the army in... On the news, they had said the 4 NE Ontario cities all experienced different parts of that storm, with North Bay missing most of the snow, but getting a lot of freezing rain. SSM got less freezing rain than Sudbury, and I think Timmins got none,just another dump.

TBH, the 500, 600 and 800 series highways should not be given a higher maintenance budget as many if not all are very quiet highways, and although there is a reason for them, most of them are not that busy. It would be like expecting Highway 2 and the 401 should see the same maintenance.

Another tidbit, when they opened some of the highways, there were police escorts with "do not pass" being enforced.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

I can recall in fairly recent memory of Hwy 402 being closed and stranded motorists having to be rescued at least twice.

The 402 is notorious for sometimes having particularly bad snow squalls off of Lake Huron. I believe it is not that uncommon for it to close during major weather events.
In fact, even some of the 401 was closed between Kitchener and London during the last messy winter storm, I think because of an accident but it was still closed for a few hours. So yes, 400 series highways do close, and as insertnamehere mentioned, it is a much bigger deal when they do.

It is more a question of whether anything could have been done or was it the nature of that storm.

I don't think it could have gone that much better... First of all, the storm in the north was far worse than anything the south really ever gets. And to put things into perspective, if you laid out the entire 400 series network end to end (1997km) it would be only a little bit longer than all of Highway 17 (1964km). And then you have Highway 11, another 1784km. And all the 100 series roads. My point is that it is probably difficult, given the population density, to have such a large snow clearing operation to the same degree as the south. Not saying that we shouldn't try to make it better, but expectations need to be realistic.

 

[micheal_can]

Isn't the 402 notorious for having particularly bad snow squalls off of Lake Huron? I believe it is not that uncommon for it to close during major weather events.
In fact, even some of the 401 was closed between Kitchener and London during the last messy winter storm, I think because of an accident but it was still closed for a few hours. So yes, 400 series highways do close, and as insertnamehere mentioned, it is a much bigger deal when they do.

I remember that storm.
How long after the storm stopped did the highway take to reopen.

I don't think it could have gone that much better... First of all, the storm in the north was far worse than anything the south really ever gets. And to put things into perspective, if you laid out the entire 400 series network end to end (1997km) it would be only a little bit longer than all of Highway 17 (1964km). And then you have Highway 11, another 1784km. And all the 100 series roads. My point is that it is probably difficult, given the population density, to have such a large snow clearing operation to the same degree as the south. Not saying that we shouldn't try to make it better, but expectations need to be realistic.

If you are going to compare distances, remember, much of 11 and 17 are still 2 lanes,not 6+ as most 400 series are.So,that can play with the distances.

I do not expect it to be as good as, for example, the 401 through Toronto with its 18 lanes. And, yes, I have driven there during a storm. It gets dicey.

What is expected for 17 and 401 to be down to bare roadway? And what if the same were applied to both? Would that be expecting too much? Where is that realistic point?

 

[lenaitch]

This is not a war between the 2 areas. It is more a question of whether anything could have been done or was it the nature of that storm. That storm dropped over 80cm in 24 hours. At least we didn't need to call the army in... On the news, they had said the 4 NE Ontario cities all experienced different parts of that storm, with North Bay missing most of the snow, but getting a lot of freezing rain. SSM got less freezing rain than Sudbury, and I think Timmins got none,just another dump.

TBH, the 500, 600 and 800 series highways should not be given a higher maintenance budget as many if not all are very quiet highways, and although there is a reason for them, most of them are not that busy. It would be like expecting Highway 2 and the 401 should see the same maintenance.

Another tidbit, when they opened some of the highways, there were police escorts with "do not pass" being enforced.

If I am understanding the media surrounding the recent storm, Sudbury has suspended garbage/recycling pickup until March 30th, and only some of the school bus routes are back in operation. It seems the storm overwhelmed a lot of public services.

I don't anybody is suggesting secondary and tertiary highways should receive enhanced maintenance; just primary highways, in particular Hwys 11 and 17.

The escorted opening of Hwy 11 north of North Bay was a great idea and hope it happens again. The primary motivation was the stopped trucks were impinging on traffic on the North Bay bypass. Somebody on social media did a count and I forget the number but it was in the order of several hundred trucks. It's a great idea because the drivers get a little antsy and frisky after sitting not making any money. A number of times, a highway has re-opened then closed again shortly after because somebody did something stupid.

I don't know all of the logistics of an escorted opening although it doesn't strike be as being particularly labour intensive. Apparently a rule was 'no passing' but I don't know how they would hope to enforce it is a convoy several kilometers long.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

If you are going to compare distances, remember, much of 11 and 17 are still 2 lanes,not 6+ as most 400 series are.So,that can play with the distances.

You are right on that point. I am curious though- do the twinned sections of 17 get plowed better than the 2 lane sections?

 

[lenaitch]

What is expected for 17 and 401 to be down to bare roadway? And what if the same were applied to both? Would that be expecting too much? Where is that realistic point?

I do think that is unrealistic, even under the same maintenance standards. There is a fair bit of sciency stuff that goes on, but a lot of process to get to bare pavement involves temperature and abrasion. Southern Ontario highway surfaces are naturally warmer than northern, and are warmed up even more by tire friction. When you've got 10,000 vehicle per day, that's a lot of tires compared to 2000. A low volume, two lane highway in southern Ontario won't look a whole lot different than one in the north, temperatures being equal. Salt only works in a limited temperature range so even if they turned the northern highways into a salt beach, it wouldn't do much. Applying brine can help a bit but that's part of the 'improved standards' thing. Sand works as an abrasive to break up packed snow and that is really aided by lots of tires churning it up. It also helps to break the packed snow down because it is darker and will absorb radiant heat on a sunny day. Again, northern highways don't have the same traffic volume as the south so the effects are very much limited. Apply sand on a low volume road and it will mostly just lie there.

There is no road maintenance vehicle around today that can scrape a road down to bare, not ever a grader (and even those have other issues). Sure, they could have equipment like major airports, ploughs, heated blowers, rotary brushes, etc. that pass any given point in their relatively tiny area of responsibility maybe a couple of times per hours. You wouldn't like the cost.

 

[micheal_can]

If I am understanding the media surrounding the recent storm, Sudbury has suspended garbage/recycling pickup until March 30th, and only some of the school bus routes are back in operation. It seems the storm overwhelmed a lot of public services.

That is very correct. Part of the problem is The City of Greater Sudbury's snow plowing policy requires the snow to be on the ground before they do much. A full call out does not happen till 8cm has fallen. In normal circumstances, that is not an issue. In a storm like this, that is what fell every few hours. My hope is that some sort of public release of information on changes can be released.

I don't anybody is suggesting secondary and tertiary highways should receive enhanced maintenance; just primary highways, in particular Hwys 11 and 17.

The escorted opening of Hwy 11 north of North Bay was a great idea and hope it happens again. The primary motivation was the stopped trucks were impinging on traffic on the North Bay bypass. Somebody on social media did a count and I forget the number but it was in the order of several hundred trucks. It's a great idea because the drivers get a little antsy and frisky after sitting not making any money. A number of times, a highway has re-opened then closed again shortly after because somebody did something stupid.

I don't know all of the logistics of an escorted opening although it doesn't strike be as being particularly labour intensive. Apparently a rule was 'no passing' but I don't know how they would hope to enforce it is a convoy several kilometers long.

As I understood it, it was an OPP cruiser in front. I think they did that in case there were issues they ran into along the way. Maybe it can be adopted for all road closures.

 

[micheal_can]

You are right on that point. I am curious though- do the twinned sections of 17 get plowed better than the 2 lane sections?

No. they only use 1 plow at a time. Would be nice to see it changed to either 2 plows, or the single plow towing a plow trailer. Just that change could make a difference. Many accidents in storms seem to be due to impatient drivers wanting to pass. Clearing all travel lanes at the same time could lower those accidents.

 

[micheal_can]

I do think that is unrealistic, even under the same maintenance standards. There is a fair bit of sciency stuff that goes on, but a lot of process to get to bare pavement involves temperature and abrasion. Southern Ontario highway surfaces are naturally warmer than northern, and are warmed up even more by tire friction. When you've got 10,000 vehicle per day, that's a lot of tires compared to 2000. A low volume, two lane highway in southern Ontario won't look a whole lot different than one in the north, temperatures being equal. Salt only works in a limited temperature range so even if they turned the northern highways into a salt beach, it wouldn't do much. Applying brine can help a bit but that's part of the 'improved standards' thing. Sand works as an abrasive to break up packed snow and that is really aided by lots of tires churning it up. It also helps to break the packed snow down because it is darker and will absorb radiant heat on a sunny day. Again, northern highways don't have the same traffic volume as the south so the effects are very much limited. Apply sand on a low volume road and it will mostly just lie there.

There is no road maintenance vehicle around today that can scrape a road down to bare, not ever a grader (and even those have other issues). Sure, they could have equipment like major airports, ploughs, heated blowers, rotary brushes, etc. that pass any given point in their relatively tiny area of responsibility maybe a couple of times per hours. You wouldn't like the cost.

I remember decades ago that they seemed to use more sand than salt. Now, they seem to use more salt than sand. It feels like the goal is to melt the snow instead of make the snow have traction. Part of the problem is if you use the same wording, such as bare roadway across the province as the metric, like you said, that may be much easier in the south than the north. TBH, it is not about bare pavement. It is about it being safe to drive on at the speed limit. Up here, most of us have winter tires. Some of us even have studs. So, it is not that we do not expect bad roads, it just seems they seem to be worse every year. So, maybe it is not about being bare, but the number of passes an hour till it is bare. Many times, there is a center of lane berm that seems to just sit there, making it very unsafe for cars or no 4x4/AWD vehicles.