[Glen]

Property values in Toronto have also gone up faster than pretty much any other jurisdiction in the province as well. If Toronto tax payers were paying property taxes at the same percentage as those in other cities, they would be paying considerably more dollars than homeowners in those other cities with a similar properties. There are now many people in this city living in homes they could no longer afford if they were to buy them today. Some probably could not move simply because they could no longer pay for both the provincial and city land transfer tax.

The point still stands. Both in actual dollars and in percentages, Toronto homeowners have not had the types of increases as elsewhere. Lastman is largley to blame here.

The whole affordability argument is an interesting one. Trying to reconcile the dramatic increases in property values with increasing demand with cries of 'unaffordable' tax burdens is difficult. It would also be interesting to speculate if the above average inflation of Toronto's residential properties would have been as great if the levels of taxes were equivalent to other regions (~20% higher).

 

[JasonParis]

"What this will be is a shift from big business downtown to small business in neighbourhoods, and that does concern me. But it's a very complex decision and we have to review it completely.

I don't get this. Why?

 

[Glen]

I don't get this. Why?

Everything you need to know is in here......

http://www.ctf.ca/pdf/ctjpdf/2002ctj2_slack.pdf

 

[bjl]

Assuming your house is assessed as a vacant building, as all houses are, then you are already getting a break the towers were not.

Why would my house be assessed as vacant? We live there.
How am I getting a break, if I get this huge tax bill every year?

 

[lordmandeep]

well considering the city already troubled job market, it would be wise to put more of the load on residential as their are tones of homes being built in Toronto. People are not moving to Toronto for lower property taxes for sure.
So, doing so won't lead to a housing collapse.

Yes, we would like to go after the big cooperations, but really jacking up business taxes, would just help Mississauga and Markham. I mean the big cooperations will stay here, but smaller cooperations have mostly stayed outside Toronto for this very reason.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The whole affordability argument is an interesting one. Trying to reconcile the dramatic increases in property values with increasing demand with cries of 'unaffordable' tax burdens is difficult. It would also be interesting to speculate if the above average inflation of Toronto's residential properties would have been as great if the levels of taxes were equivalent to other regions (~20% higher).

Except that residents oftentimes do not acquire a property for the sake of selling it - if the intent is to use it as a semi-permanent residence - and as such is boxed in by rising property taxes stemming from increased assessed value when in fact the benefit of such is not realized (given the property was not sold). That's not to say more of the burden shouldn't be shifted to the single-detached housing property owners - but one have to keep in mind that such a policy shift will have a negative impact on the stability of neighbourhoods.

re: comparison with 905

Tax rate is one thing; actual amount of property tax paid is another - if having a reasonable mix of socioeconomic classes is a goal of the city, one will have to look at both factors to determine whether 905-like increases are indeed feasible.

In fact, I can think of several policy options that may deal with this issue - an added one time municpal tax upon sale on properties that have appreciated in value since purchase; reduced/waived residential property tax increase due to changes in land uses (Granny flats, etc).

AoD

 

[lordmandeep]

the 905 everyone makes around the same amount of wealth give or take or in other terms are middle class. Yes you have really rich and poor, but you can but a tax increase that will be affordable to most.

Now in Toronto, you have a lot of poor people who are just getting by, some middle class, and rich people.

A huge increase in taxes, will be alright to some, but could be a disaster for others.

 

[unimaginative2]

Perhaps a more progressive approach to property taxation is in order. A house valued at more than, say, a million dollars could pay a surtax.

 

[Fair Comment]

Does anyone have a link to the text of the actual Decision of the ARB?

 

[junctionist]

Forcing the city with its current financial problems to refund anything to companies that are making hand over fist.....man, that's an absurd drama worthy of Samuel Becket or Ionesco.

That's a good comparison, though I would add that Kafka might also be inspired by this kind of thing.

 

[Edward Skira]

Forcing the city with its current financial problems to refund anything to companies that are making hand over fist.....man, that's an absurd drama worthy of Samuel Becket or Ionesco.

Since when is property tax considered income tax? Should they pay no property tax in the years when they lose money?

 

[Glen]

re: comparison with 905

Tax rate is one thing; actual amount of property tax paid is another - if having a reasonable mix of socioeconomic classes is a goal of the city, one will have to look at both factors to determine whether 905-like increases are indeed feasible.


AoD

Consider for a moment that, for the most part, those occupying the lower portions of the socioeconomic spectrum are renters. The vast majority of those are in multi-residential apartments which are taxed at the much higher commercial like rates. To suggest that Toronto's low residential taxes are a social justice measure rings hollow. The simple truth is that politicians pander to those whom are most likely to vote. Unfortunately most renters don't.

http://www.ontariotenants.ca/taxes/articles/2003/ts-03k08.phtml

The tax subsidy results from the difference between the "residential" and "multi-residential" tax rate. In Toronto this year, the residential city tax rate is 0.6565552 per cent, while the multi-residential rate is 2.5411828 per cent. These figures are the percentages against which property assessment is multiplied to come up with the property taxes.

This inequity means that a single mother living in a small rented one-bedroom apartment assessed at $80,000 pays the same taxes to the City of Toronto as a wealthy executive who owns a condominium apartment or townhouse assessed at almost $310,000!

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Consider for a moment that, for the most part, those occupying the lower portions of the socioeconomic spectrum are renters. The vast majority of those are in multi-residential apartments which are taxed at the much higher commercial like rates. To suggest that Toronto's low residential taxes are a social justice measure rings hollow. The simple truth is that politicians pander to those whom are most likely to vote. Unfortunately most renters don't.

Here is what I've said:

Tax rate is one thing; actual amount of property tax paid is another - if having a reasonable mix of socioeconomic classes is a goal of the city, one will have to look at both factors to determine whether 905-like increases are indeed feasible.

I am not saying that low residential taxes is a social justice measure across the board - I am saying low(er) residential tax rates does not equate to lower amount of property taxes paid - it has nothing to do with just renters and the lowest rung of the socioeconomic class and all to do with maintaining a balanced socioeconomic mix, particularly the middle class, which is shrinking in Toronto.

Beyond that, I believe you're obfusticating the issue of tax rates for purely commercial properties to multi-unit apartments in order to support your point, particularly given they are in different property classes and any changes to rectify the rental argument can be decoupled from those of office towers.

AoD

 

[Glen]

Here is what I've said:



I am not saying that low residential taxes is a social justice measure across the board - I am saying low(er) residential tax rates does not equate to lower amount of property taxes paid - it has nothing to do with just renters and the lowest rung of the socioeconomic class and all to do with maintaining a balanced socioeconomic mix, particularly the middle class, which is shrinking in Toronto.

I addressed that earlier. Toronto residential taxes are on a per household average, much less. Regardless of higher assessments or differing rates.

Hot off the press......

Think your property taxes are high in the City of Toronto? Get in line.


According to City of Toronto statistics, Toronto homeowners pay the smallest dollar figure in property taxes in the Greater Toronto Area – an average of $2,701.


Here’s a breakdown for average 2007 property tax rates in the 905 Region:


Toronto: $2,701
Mississauga: $2,956
Oshawa: $3,170
Markham: $3,383
Oakville: $3,385
Vaughan: $3,556
Richmond Hill: $3,556
Pickering: $3,571

-----------------------

Beyond that, I believe you're obfusticating the issue of tax rates for purely commercial properties to multi-unit apartments in order to support your point, particularly given they are in different property classes and any changes to rectify the rental argument can be decoupled from those of office towers.

AoD

Of course what you are saying is true. The classes, commercial and multi residential, are decoupled. What I was addressing though is the political reality that lead to the current inequities .One of the first lessons politicians learn is homeowners vote, renters do not (generally of course). As a politician if you can ensure that a service is provided and someone else is going to pay for it, you will be held in high esteem.

 

[Hydrogen]

I addressed that earlier. Toronto residential taxes are on a per household average, much less. Regardless of higher assessments or differing rates.

These numbers tell very little.