ADRM
Senior Member
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- Thread starter Yoshimura
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Tuck
Active Member
Streetcars are. LRTs are not. And I know they're very similar, but the differences add up to something substantial. I shake my head every time I see a city putting in a new streetcar line. Why? Because LRT is basically streetcar, but without all the things that make streetcars really, really shitty.
But if you're lumping them together and saying they're both obsolete, no, I don't think so. A lot of people really want the auto-car revolution to completely solve our congestion problem, but I don't see it happening. Transit will remain the best way to move a lot of people at once (i.e during rush hour).
But if you're lumping them together and saying they're both obsolete, no, I don't think so. A lot of people really want the auto-car revolution to completely solve our congestion problem, but I don't see it happening. Transit will remain the best way to move a lot of people at once (i.e during rush hour).
ADRM
Senior Member
What distinction are you drawing between LRTs and streetcars to make the assertion that the latter are obsolete?
Tuck
Active Member
Actually, I made the assertion that the former is obsolete (streetcars, not LRT).
LRT and Streetcars are basically the same thing - its not really a question of technology, so much as it is a question of implementation. The big three differences: Signal priority, stop distance, dedicated right of way. The same three that were commonly used to justify the SSE reverting back to LRT on this forum (Which I agreed with, but thats a topic for another thread).
As far as I'm concerned, there is little reason to build a streetcar line (i.e, no signal priority, similar to bus stop distance, mixed traffic) in todays world. Missing those things is part of the reason streetcars died out in the first place - they couldn't compete with cars.
Now, to be fair, a city might want streetcars because they are much higher capacity than a bus. But if you're spending that much money, I see it as a waste to not go the extra mile and get as much of the big three as possible. Signal priority is a pretty easy win. Stop spacing comes down to planning. The more difficult aspect is the right of way, but I see it as a worthwhile investment. I hate to admit it, but it may not be possible to get fully dedicated rights of way in more denser areas (For a local example, see the Hamilton LRT), but wherever possible makes a big difference.
So in short, I'm saying build streetcars properly, or they will be utterly hated as they have been for years and years. In retrospect, its not quite what the OP is talking about, so maybe I've taken us a bit off topic. (He's more focusing on the question "Will automated cars reduce the need for transit," which I discussed briefly in the second half of my original post).
Off topic, apparently the NYC streetcar they're trying to build does have a dedicated ROR after all. I did not know this. Though, the renders really make it look like its running in mixed traffic. Hmm...
ADRM
Senior Member
I see where you're coming from, for sure, but I do think it's confusing in the Toronto context to say "streetcars don't have signal priority, ideal stop distance, or dedicated right of way" -- especially the last of those three because the St. Clair, Queen's Quay, and Spadina streetcar lines all have dedicated rights of way.
If the city were serious about upgrading our surface transit network, they could fairly easily solve the first two problems as well, but even if they did that, people would of course still refer to them as streetcars.
Tuck
Active Member
Yeah, its a confusing distinction. St Clair/Spadina technically are LRT, just not done so well as they only have 1 or two of the big 3. But they're part of the streetcar network, not the (future) LRT network, and run streetcar vehicles, not the LRT vehicles.
Its a hazy line, especially in Toronto. Less hazy in other cities that don't currently have an expansive streetcar network like we do.
ADRM
Senior Member
Exactly -- and I think that distinction will be further drawn by the masses once the Eglinton LRT is up and running (people will like that and continue to loathe the King streetcar as it grinds along in mixed traffic).
I'm always wary of denouncing "streetcars" in the city because I think it gives fuel to the folks who assume that means that all surface transit sucks.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Adam Giambrone is telling New York City to make sure their streetcar (not light rail) is in their own lane or right-of-way.
From link. Dated Sept. 7, 2016.
Toronto’s Transit Advice for New York: Give Streetcars Their Own Lanes
From link. Dated Sept. 7, 2016.
Toronto’s Transit Advice for New York: Give Streetcars Their Own Lanes
As the streetcar crept along Queen Street West in clogged traffic through the heart of downtown, anxiety started to rise among those inside. Commuters checked the time, calculating how late they would be for work.
The red-and-white trolley did not feel like rapid transit.
“It’s not very efficient,” said Shande McPhee, who was a half-hour late for her financial-industry job on a recent morning because of worse-than-usual congestion. If only the streetcar had a dedicated lane to bypass cars, she said.
Despite flare-ups of grumpiness, tens of thousands of people in Canada’s largest city rely on the vehicles to get around on North America’s largest streetcar system.
Now that New York City is bringing back the streetcar, with Mayor Bill de Blasio planning a $2.5 billion waterfront route linking Brooklyn and Queens by 2024, officials are looking to Toronto for lessons on how to make the new line a success. Even in Toronto, where trolleys have rattled down streets for nearly a century, the streetcars have often prompted rancorous debates — which will undoubtedly soon be coming to New York.
This summer, New York City hired Adam Giambrone, a former chairman of the Toronto Transit Commission, to run the project and sell the concept to residents along the line. His arrival was a sign that plans were moving forward, though his debut became a bit bumpy after New Yorkers learned of the sex scandal that had derailed Mr. Giambrone’s political career, prompting headlines that the city had recruited the Canadian Anthony Weiner.
Adam Giambrone, a former chairman of the Toronto Transit Commission, was hired by New York City to run the planned $2.5 billion waterfront route. Credit Sam Hodgson for The New York Times
As New York works to complete a rigorous study of the line by the fall, streetcar riders and transit experts in Toronto have repeated the same two warnings: build dedicated lanes to keep the streetcars from getting trapped in traffic and be prepared for outrage over the loss of street space and parking.
In Toronto, about 250,000 riders use the city’s 11 streetcar lines each day. Many of the lines run east-west on the same roadways as cars, connecting commuters to a broader network of subway and bus lines. A few routes, like the Spadina line, have their own lane separated from traffic by a raised curb.
“I would only take streetcars that have their own lane,” Matthew Hibbert said as he rode a new Spadina streetcar on a recent afternoon. “I would try to find a way to a subway if I had to take a streetcar that was in regular traffic.”
But the reaction from drivers when lanes of traffic are set aside for streetcars can be politically troublesome, said Josh Colle, a Toronto city councilor and the current chairman of the Transit Commission. Years after the city added a dedicated lane on the St. Clair line, it is still a delicate topic.
“It’s like a holy war,” Mr. Colle said in an interview at his office in City Hall. “It’s more than pushback. It’s vicious.”
Local businesses worry they will lose customers if street parking is removed. Drivers fear fewer car lanes will make commutes more painful.
Perhaps the most prominent streetcar critic was Rob Ford, the pugnacious former Toronto mayor who gained worldwide notoriety after he admitted to using crack cocaine while in office. (Mr. Ford died in March.) While his push to remove streetcars was not successful, supporters say it did lasting harm to their image, and delays on an order of new streetcars have not helped.
Yet many Torontonians love the streetcars and delight in their elegance and nostalgia, a kind of romance that is also palpable in cities like New Orleans and San Francisco.
“I actually enjoy riding the streetcar more than the subway, just to be able to be outside, instead of being stuck underground,” Rob Bird, an actor, said as he took the Queen line in Toronto, calling the trip “serene.”
A growing number of American cities are turning to streetcars, which supporters argue are environmentally friendly, less expensive than building a subway and more attractive to commuters than buses. Still, in cities like Washington and Atlanta, new lines have faced a backlash over delays, cost overruns and low ridership.
A few streetcar routes in Toronto, like the Spadina line, have their own lane separated from traffic by a raised curb. Credit J. Adam Huggins for The New York Times
In New York, Mr. de Blasio, a Democrat, has proposed a 16-mile route, known as the Brooklyn Queens Connector, running from Astoria, Queens, to Sunset Park, Brooklyn. When city officials announced that Mr. Giambrone would serve as director for the project, they boasted of his experience with Toronto’s streetcars. But Mr. Giambrone, once viewed as a rising political star, had a clouded past. He abruptly withdrew from the mayor’s race in Toronto after an affair was revealed, along with embarrassing text messages.
In recent years, Mr. Giambrone, 39, has reinvented himself as a transit expert, working on projects in Milwaukee and Montreal.
“You can Google me; it’s all there,” Mr. Giambrone said. “I’ve gone through this, and I’ve learned from it.”
Steve Munro, a transit advocate in Toronto who has advised Mr. Giambrone in the past, said New York officials must focus on block-by-block planning for the streetcar line and listen closely to community feedback.
“Adam’s really got his work cut out for him getting the project to a point where it’s credible to the people it’s going to serve,” Mr. Munro said. “Because if the area it’s going to go through doesn’t want it, that project is going to die.”
Passengers on the Spadina line. Credit J. Adam Huggins for The New York Times
Mr. Giambrone, who is living near the proposed streetcar corridor on the border of Downtown Brooklyn and Fort Greene, seemed to understand the challenges ahead and was enthusiastic to begin. He said he had already walked the corridor and envisioned several rounds of public meetings.
He said he understood how frustrating it was when streetcars in Toronto were stuck in traffic, adding that the New York line would be “heavily reliant” on a dedicated right of way. In fact, city officials have said they want more than 70 percent of the line to have its own lane — a configuration more common on light rail systems like the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail in New Jersey. Light rail generally has separate lanes with longer distances between stations, while streetcars move at slower speeds and make more stops.
The streetcar must offer reliable service and easy connections to the subway, Mr. Giambrone said, so that people will use it as part of their commute.
“This isn’t just a tourist tram,” he said. “It’s not just for economic development. This has to work as a transportation project.”
A major question is whether commuters would be able to pay one fare to use the city-run streetcar and the state-run Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s subways and buses. In Toronto, there are free transfers between all three modes, but the entire network is run by a city-led agency.
As the project moves forward, Mr. Giambrone said he was confident officials would want to make it a success by integrating fares. As for whether the line might be built in stages, he said it was likely because the city could not close the entire corridor for construction all at once.
Samuel I. Schwartz, a consultant for the real-estate-backed nonprofit Friends of the Brooklyn Queens Connector and a former city traffic commissioner, said it would be best to start with the middle part of the route, because that was where the “meat of the ridership” would be. Though people will inevitably complain about the loss of parking, he said the benefits outweighed the costs.
“I’ve worked in this city for 45 years,” Mr. Schwartz said, “and frankly, if God came down and proposed the Garden of Eden, people would protest that.”
Tuck
Active Member
The C-Train is much higher order LRT, in that the vast majority is completely in its own ROW. Still wish I had ridden it when I was in Calgary, but I did get to see it, and it was a beauty.
All I ever hear is people complaining about its stupidly recent stop spacing.
But I haven't ever ridden it so those words are from some random internet strangers, not me.
Um... does it?
All I ever hear is people complaining about its stupidly recent stop spacing.
But I haven't ever ridden it so those words are from some random internet strangers, not me.
Steve X
Senior Member
Streetcars aren't outdated. There isn't really a need to be exclusive to either ROW or mix traffic. Many LRT and tram systems in this world has a more LRT like operation in the core and streetcar operation in the suburbs. Pre-Metro/Stadtbahn in Europe adds to that with a tunneled/grade separated busy portion where it becomes a subway but the line could still include mix traffic segments at low traffic parts of the line.
I think Steve Munro has been arguing how the Lake Shore portion of the waterfront LRT could really just be mixed traffic with upgrades over the current operations. This could be island platform for all stops, better transit priority, dedicated lanes at certain stops and etc. They are better off spending the money elsewhere where congestion is a big issue.
When I rode their system, I realized how badly designed it was. The NW line is in the middle of an expressway while the south line is beside a railway corridor. Sections of the west line and NE line is in the middle of a wide road. It's really quiet and lack the feeling of safety at night. Of course being on POP means there is no fare paid loading zone at bus terminals. I don't know if they fixed the announcements where a service suspensions would still be played hours after it clears. Also, people are sometimes stuck waiting 3-5 minutes to get onto 7th avenue as both routes 201 and 202 shared the same downtown strip. In rush hour, 201 and 202 both are scheduled very 5 minutes. On a bad day, one can observe 3 to 4 201's go by before a 202 shows up. Immediately outside the core, traffic are held up really badly. The platform is on one side of the road. The train would approach the platform before crossing the street and could take 30 seconds to board. The gates go down and bells ding and dongs the entire time blocking traffic while the train is at the platform. This could happen for minutes if the train doesn't leave with a mechanical problem while traffic backs right up. It's like the Milliken GO station at Steeles east of P mall except GO trains aren't as frequent. ML will eventually grade separate that location with RER while Calgary continues with their traffic jams claiming LRT is good for the budget.
The C-Train is a really nice system but I really don't feel it's suitable for the Toronto. Transit city lines are more integrated into an urban setting. We want a city built for people to live in not parking lots, railway gates and bells to annoy everyone. The C-Trains stations are terrible to live beside. You be stuck in traffic and listening to bells at midnight. No wonder why there will never be condos beside them.
I think Steve Munro has been arguing how the Lake Shore portion of the waterfront LRT could really just be mixed traffic with upgrades over the current operations. This could be island platform for all stops, better transit priority, dedicated lanes at certain stops and etc. They are better off spending the money elsewhere where congestion is a big issue.
The C-Train is really just an at-grade subway outside the 7th avenue strip. The newest west line actually have an underground and an elevated segments. Many stations in the suburbs have huge parking lots and bus terminals. It's like a GO train station completed with railway crossing gates and bells. Besides using light rail vehicles and being called LRT, it's much closer than RER than a typical urban light rail line.
When I rode their system, I realized how badly designed it was. The NW line is in the middle of an expressway while the south line is beside a railway corridor. Sections of the west line and NE line is in the middle of a wide road. It's really quiet and lack the feeling of safety at night. Of course being on POP means there is no fare paid loading zone at bus terminals. I don't know if they fixed the announcements where a service suspensions would still be played hours after it clears. Also, people are sometimes stuck waiting 3-5 minutes to get onto 7th avenue as both routes 201 and 202 shared the same downtown strip. In rush hour, 201 and 202 both are scheduled very 5 minutes. On a bad day, one can observe 3 to 4 201's go by before a 202 shows up. Immediately outside the core, traffic are held up really badly. The platform is on one side of the road. The train would approach the platform before crossing the street and could take 30 seconds to board. The gates go down and bells ding and dongs the entire time blocking traffic while the train is at the platform. This could happen for minutes if the train doesn't leave with a mechanical problem while traffic backs right up. It's like the Milliken GO station at Steeles east of P mall except GO trains aren't as frequent. ML will eventually grade separate that location with RER while Calgary continues with their traffic jams claiming LRT is good for the budget.
The C-Train is a really nice system but I really don't feel it's suitable for the Toronto. Transit city lines are more integrated into an urban setting. We want a city built for people to live in not parking lots, railway gates and bells to annoy everyone. The C-Trains stations are terrible to live beside. You be stuck in traffic and listening to bells at midnight. No wonder why there will never be condos beside them.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Two problems.
The city's transportation department who still see the automobile as king. Along with their disciples at city council.
The NIMBYs. Who refuse to speed up service by eliminated closely spaced stops.
The city's transportation department who still see the automobile as king. Along with their disciples at city council.
The NIMBYs. Who refuse to speed up service by eliminated closely spaced stops.
ksun
Senior Member
The latter is particularly important.
Streetcars are great, however, experiences in taking streetcars in Toronto is usually filled with frustration because of the mixed traffic and excessive number of stops.
this is how tram works in France, just notice how much space is given to the tram (no mixed traffic). And the stop spacing is 400-500 meters in the densest area (compared with 200 meter, or less in Toronto).
aquateam
Active Member
It's reliable, but it's slow. It's slower than the Bathurst streetcar, which doesn't have a ROW. The problem is how intersections are handled/designed.
That's a pretty damning assessment of the replacement of the Spadina bus with streetcar/"LRT".
I think it's actually a good thing that they are reserving a lane while they can. It's better to have the ROW now when traffic isn't bad, rather than wait until the section of road becomes congested and THEN try to take a lane from frustrated motorists.
The C-train has surprisingly high ridership considering the built environment. Calgary has transit ridership about double what you'd expect for a city that size, built post-war. Calgary's secret: parking policy. Instead of parking minimums, they have parking maximums. That's why I think it's a particularly cruel joke when people on this forum talk about the need for new development to provide sufficient parking.
cplchanb
Senior Member
IMO a lot of the arguments for the streetcar in the traditional sense is based on nostalgia and sentiment towards an old form of transit; basically, fanboyism and rail fanaticism. Yes Toronto has one of the largest streetcar networks around,
but in this day in age, the traditional architecture of a streetcar with it being mixed in traffic with close stop spacing doesnt work with modern toronto. Toronto has simply failed to adapt with the changing urban climate. Remember the streetcar was a form of transport that was developed in the early 20th century when people didnt have cars, hence the close stop spacing and mixed traffic and the term street car. Lets face it, in the 21st century cars dominating in NA are here to stay. There is no dream world solution to have streetcars coexist with cars. One cannot shove new streetcars on King and Queen and assume that it will sort itself out in 10 years. The fact is, instead of streetcar infrastructure, LRT infrastructure is the way to go with longer stop spacing and ROW. Unfortunately for Toronto, we are still stuck in the 1980s and still trying to develop an antique network where in reality they need to convert to LRT
but in this day in age, the traditional architecture of a streetcar with it being mixed in traffic with close stop spacing doesnt work with modern toronto. Toronto has simply failed to adapt with the changing urban climate. Remember the streetcar was a form of transport that was developed in the early 20th century when people didnt have cars, hence the close stop spacing and mixed traffic and the term street car. Lets face it, in the 21st century cars dominating in NA are here to stay. There is no dream world solution to have streetcars coexist with cars. One cannot shove new streetcars on King and Queen and assume that it will sort itself out in 10 years. The fact is, instead of streetcar infrastructure, LRT infrastructure is the way to go with longer stop spacing and ROW. Unfortunately for Toronto, we are still stuck in the 1980s and still trying to develop an antique network where in reality they need to convert to LRT
crs1026
Superstar
Exactly. Streetcars have remained desirable on some of our routes because traffic is too heavy to give busses a speed advantage. If you substituted bus for streetcar, you would quickly be arguing for dedicated bus lanes to get the large number of buses (which carry less people than streetcars, so you need more of them) through all the traffic.
No one advocates adding new streetcar lines, the challenge is how to extract a better end state. That seems to require separation of lanes, and traffic control. We do need to challenge the mentality that streetcars just plod or amble along.
What I find nostalgiac in those old streetcar videos is how autos posed much less of an impediment to streetcars. Traffic was simply lighter.
- Paul