ACE
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Tewder
Senior Member
Before we start casting stones at others maybe we should examine our own hypocracies first. Just how 'constitutional' are Quebec language laws or native reservations or catholic school funding in Ontario?? Nobody living in Canada has the right to criticize the Swiss when we have our own state-sponsored inequities to deal with...
Look, maybe we should consider this issue to be pro-'Swiss' so to speak more than anti-Islam per se. They are not banning the immigration of Muslims or the practise of the muslim faith or muslim religious houses etc. They are simply trying to preserve their tiny unique cultural landscape and where's the harm? Unlike Canada with absolutely no history, culture or traditions (a little bit of sarcasm here but you get the point) Switzerland is a very old nation that may value preserving some of the very things that Canada doesn't. Who's to say we should judge? In the same way Quebec values protecting its linguistic landscape Switzerland may also feel its identity to be more and more vulnerable to disappearing in the face of changing demographics through immigration.
Also, we may enjoy sitting here and smugly bashing those 'racist' and xenophobic Europeans but they are facing enormous population pressures that we in Canada do not, including overpopulation and lack of jobs to start with, as well as the enormous pressure at the borders of migrating eastern Europeans, Africans and Muslims, all with demands on already far-stretched generous European social programs. The Europeans are taking in migrants but are making demands on them in order to preserve the ideals and traditions they value. Does this make them racist? Yours to decide but I think not.
Look, maybe we should consider this issue to be pro-'Swiss' so to speak more than anti-Islam per se. They are not banning the immigration of Muslims or the practise of the muslim faith or muslim religious houses etc. They are simply trying to preserve their tiny unique cultural landscape and where's the harm? Unlike Canada with absolutely no history, culture or traditions (a little bit of sarcasm here but you get the point) Switzerland is a very old nation that may value preserving some of the very things that Canada doesn't. Who's to say we should judge? In the same way Quebec values protecting its linguistic landscape Switzerland may also feel its identity to be more and more vulnerable to disappearing in the face of changing demographics through immigration.
Also, we may enjoy sitting here and smugly bashing those 'racist' and xenophobic Europeans but they are facing enormous population pressures that we in Canada do not, including overpopulation and lack of jobs to start with, as well as the enormous pressure at the borders of migrating eastern Europeans, Africans and Muslims, all with demands on already far-stretched generous European social programs. The Europeans are taking in migrants but are making demands on them in order to preserve the ideals and traditions they value. Does this make them racist? Yours to decide but I think not.
Roy G Biv
Senior Member
Of course I can. A double standard would be present if all of the countries were viewed as equal, and some were treated preferentially. What I am saying, is that Switzerland is not equal to Saudi Arabia. It is better, and therefore different standards apply. I think we both agree that it is important to make "demands" from countries like Saudi Arabia, and if one of the glass house nations dares to chastise Switzerland for this law, they should be told to shove it.
The topic of discussion is the law that the Swiss passed, and how stupid they are for doing it.
Pure xenophobia through cultural protectionism. There's nothing new or novel about the Swiss' motivation here. I have travelled through Switzerland, and never felt comfortable as a man with brown skin.
It is their choice and right to protect their culture, even if they want to do it in a stupid way like this. However, they risk losing their status as a liberal and "free country", which is kind of ironic, because they probably fear this prospect as an eventual result of immigration; They become a little more like those shit-holes like Saudi Arabia.
Any European who wants to limit Muslim immigration because they like seeing people like themselves in streets (etc) gets no sympathy. Any European who is concerned about Islam, and its influence on the erosion of liberty within their country (without resorting to exaggeration and hyperbole) needs to speak up. In my opinion, existing laws provide a basis to combat this erosion, however, more needs to be done:
- Immigration needs to be tied to economics. When a country admits thousands of immigrants, and then has no work for them, what do they expect will happen? When I'm in Europe, 99% of the people wearing business suits are white. That tells us plenty.
- Flaunt the liberal values of the country. Teach it in the schools. Make it a core value, and try to incorporate it within the country's identity (instead of things like skin colour and last names).
- Separate Church and State for EVERYONE.
- Empower moderate Muslim voices
- Time. Transition is heavily dependent on the passage of time (however, it is concerning when you see radicalized 2nd gens in the UK for example). Within my community here in Canada, each generation is more liberal than the last.
Europe needs to confront this now, and this minaret law will only serve to fuel fires. I hope it's used as a wake-up call. As a new world nation, we are actually better-off in not having our identity cast in cement.
When the demand is "learn our language", I will say no. When the demand is "we are ok with Sikhs putting what they want on their temples, but you can't put what you want", then you are being something allright.
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shumoon
New Member
Well said. The Saudis are funding the spread of their Wahabi school of thought worldwide. What is appropriate for the Nejd region of the Arabian peninsula should not apply everywhere else.
Who are we talking about here? I'm sure most -if not all- Muslims in Switzerland would want human rights respected in both Switzerland and their country of origin.
Ace and Casaguy:
Just so we're clear, if the Swiss decide by referendum to ban synagogues and menorahs, this is OK with you guys? What they do to Muslims today they can do to any minority tomorrow.
Without protection of minority rights, all democracy amounts to is two wolves and one sheep deciding what is for dinner.
ACE
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cacruden
Senior Member
Maybe you can clarify it for a third time, are you saying that some third country is protesting to Switzerland demanding that their citizens be afforded certain protections? If that is correct then it is hypocritical.
If you are just grouping people for straw-man arguments, then your argument is flawed.
A country is made up of individuals, once you have accepted someone in to your country - then they should be afforded all rights of that country. The fact that another country has rules that might be discriminatory is totally irrelevant. None of those individuals in Switzerland likely has any influence on decisions of any other country. Now individuals within a community could still be hypocritical if that individual has asked for rights while stating that those rights should not be extended in the country they come from.... but that is on an individual level.
cacruden
Senior Member
urbanfan89
Active Member
I call BS on this one. Once someone moves to Switzerland, their country is Switzerland. They are judged according to Swiss standards and not their native country's standard.
A person who flees North Korea's dictatorship and settled in Switzerland is not denied freedom of speech because North Korea is an Orwellian dictatorship. A gay person who immigrates from Uganda to Switzerland is not denied the right to associate with gays because gays are repressed in Uganda.
Yes it does. Now another far-right Swiss politician is calling for Jewish cemeteries to be banned:
http://jta.org/news/article/2009/12/03/1009507/swiss-leader-calls-for-jewish-cemetery-ban
If you oppose this, you will have to admit this is not equal treatment, which is against the concept of individual rights.
They will *become* as Swiss as their holey cheese by then, so there will be no minority in their own country. Maybe those of European descent will pick up a taste for shish kebabs and camel milk and know a few Arabic words, but anything more is fearmongering like in Germany 70 years ago.
newuser2k9
Active Member
Who cares about current cultures? In the long run, cultures do change, and nations rise and fall. If the Swiss want to hold on to their culture, all the power and respect to them, but there are, many, many, many other and better ways to do it.
ACE
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Second_in_pie
Senior Member
I don't get it, what are you trying to say now?
You're trying to say that immigrants from bad countries like Iran, Saudia Arabia and North Korea shouldn't be given the same rights and freedoms as others, right? Now say that over to yourself out loud. Does it actually make any sense?
In these places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, the people don't get a choice in what their country does. They don't even indirectly participate in any decisions as to what their country does. In fact, most immigrants from these places are leaving because they don't like the way the country's being run. There's even refugees, who are fleeing persecution from the dictators that run their country. Again, they have absolutely no say in how things are run, and if they had the chance, they'd most certainly choose to be more liberal and have better human-rights records.
What's terrible is that Switzerland, a fully democratic country where the citizens decide what's going on, has directly stepped closer to these levels. So it's true, we are creating a double standard. But does Switzerland want to be judged on the same plane as Saudi Arabia, or by extension, does Canada wanted to be judged the same as Uganda?
Prometheus The Supremo
►Member №41+⅜◄
are non-jews allowed to be buried in a jewish cemetery?
are non-muslims allowed to be buried in a muslim cemetery?
kEiThZ
Superstar
Excellent points. And this is something that I don't think North Americans understand enough or have sympathy for. It's not very easy for countries and peoples with centuries of traditions and culture to suddenly let in foreigners and integrate them. Europe will never be a multi-cultural society or fully liberal one in the sense that Canada and the US are. What we see as racism, they will see as defence of their ancient cultures.
I don't even buy the claim that Switzerland claims to be a liberal nation. I've always though that with the exception of the Brits, the rest of Europe has always been quite defensive about their culture and demanding of immigrants. They don't generally strike me as liberal or progressive on immigrations issues. And I have never generally thought that they made such claims either. So I don't get where this idea comes from that Switzerland claimed to be a liberal multi-cultural nation and they went back on their word.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Yet, that line of thought would make any and all architectural control invalid.
kEiThZ
Superstar
They could simply ban immigration or be extremely selective about it. Ironically, there would not be half the hue and cry about that.
Look at Germany and Japan for examples on strict immigration and citizenship laws. Yet, nobody seems to be targeting them or suggesting that they are racist and illiberal.