shumoon
New Member
I am asking if you can quote anything in the Quran that is hate speech. You may find things you may not agree with, but you will not find hate speech.
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I am asking if you can quote anything in the Quran that is hate speech. You may find things you may not agree with, but you will not find hate speech.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Well, Mr Abdulmutallab, a Jihadist on Northwest Airlines flight 253 found sufficient hatred in his religion to try to take down an airliner. I have to give Mr Abdulmutallab credit in that like Major Malik Nadal Hasan, he did exactly as the Quran instructs:
Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master."
Certainly you can also find calls to violence in most other religious texts, but only one religion is killing and attacking throughout the Western world today.
urbandreamer
recession proof
Didn't Muslim invaders into Euope centuries ago try to ban church bells?
toraerach
Active Member
The religion isn't killing anyone - Islam isn't killing anyone. Islamism, a political ideology based on Islam is what's killing people. Not all, and not even a majority of Muslims are Islamists. Similarly, Christianity is not killing abortion doctors even though some people use their Christian beliefs as a justification for murder. I highly highly doubt someone like the Aga Khan is secretly plotting to destroy Western civilization, just like the Archbishop of Cantebury isn't plotting to blow up abortion clinics, etc.
In the Western world, we've mostly turned away from religion as political ideology. Our extremisms are mainly secular: communism and nationalism. Both of these ideologies were tried out and ended up being disasters for Muslim-majority countries - it's no surprise some have turned to their religious tradition as a rejection of the complete s**tstorms communism, nationalism, monarchism, and even liberal democracy created in the Middle East and elsewhere. These are political terrorists first and foremost, but if you're getting all your information on Islam from a website called Jihad Watch, you're bound to mistake something as simple as a tower for a symbol of violence and oppression.
gristle
Senior Member
A religions is nothing without its practitioners.
shumoon
New Member
Admiral:
The first quote is from the chapter called "Repentence", which is what you need to be doing for cherry-picking the verse out of context. You know or ought to know full well that this is part of a passage in the Quran discussing the abrogation of a treaty. Here is the full passage:
009.001 A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
009.002 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.
009.003 And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.
009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
009.006 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
009.007 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.
This is instruction on what to do when a peace treaty has not been honored. This is not hate speech.009.002 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.
009.003 And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
009.004 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.
009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
009.006 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
009.007 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.
The second quote is also cherry-picking. This chapter is called "the Spoils of War", and the context is in a war situation (when a peace treaty has been abrogated). This is not a call for open-season on non-Muslims. As to the specific verse you quote, similar rhetoric exists when secular governments beat the drum of war. It may be war-mongering, but it is not considered hate speech.
Thirdly, the Hadith related to Bukhari may or may not have inspired Mr. Abdulmutallab, but nothing in this tradition is hate speech.
Thanks for trying your hand at spreading Islamophobia, but once again you have failed.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Well put and worth repeating.
These guys need to be looked at like anarchists of the era gone by. If you compare violent Islamists to anarchists of the past, it's much easier to understand them.
urbanfan89
Active Member
And that is relevant how?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Isn't cherry picking the violent parts of Islam exactly what Al Qaeda does to justify and motivate its followers to kill people all over the globe?
Sorry, but insisting that anyone "ought to know" anything about your religion is ridiculous. I quote the parts of the Quran that support violence, much as Al Qaeda and others do today.
One thing we all ought to know is that the West is at war with Islamofascism led by militant Wahabist imams and mosques planted throughout the Western world and fueled by Saudi wealth. I fear that in this war, the West will lose, since the enemy has the willpower, manpower and financing to carry on.
cacruden
Senior Member
People will always find a justification to kill. Religion is just one.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
And a group could (and frequently does,) quote pieces from the Bible that are violent or hateful and justify that. But it's not the intention of the writing or what's being preached.
You should be aware of what you quote then. Not to mention that Islam is the second largest religion in the world, it wouldn't kill you to try to learn something about it.
Islam truly isn't hurting anyone. If there wasn't any Islam in the world (a poor world that'd be,) Al Quaida would still be blowing up buildings (and themselves,) and killing innocent people. Only this time, it'd be in defense of their homeland, or because a bunny rabbit told them in their dreams. I could create a terrorist organization that goes around murdering gay people because the bible says (though somewhat loosely in original Greek,) that a man should not sleep with another. So is Christianity an evil religion? I think not.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Find me one, just one "group" in the 21st Century (or even the 20th) that uses the Bible or any other religion outside of Islam to conduct global terrorism against innocent civilians in the West. It just hasn't happened. Sure, we had the IRA and Timothy McVeigh types, but they attacked in their own countries (most IRA attacks, for example, occured within the UK, which includes Northern Ireland) for the most part, rarely if ever globally, and never to the scale of this Islamicsts. This is why Islam and its terrorist ilk are so very different from all other religions. To assume that Islam is as harmless as other 21st Century mainstream religions is foolish and dangerous.
As for the non-terrorist angle of Islam, I think Canada could do without the Muslim traditions of paternalism.
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urbandreamer
recession proof
Well, Orthodox Jews certainly use their own Torah to justify expansion into West Bank, East Jerusalem etc. A form of terrorism I think.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
More like the spoils of war. Would you rather they gave the land gained in the Arab-Israeli wars back to its original owners of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Britain?
LAz
Active Member
Well the state has since its existence been about displacing arabs and bringing in jews from abroad to take their places... that state is a state of appartheid.
But, on topic...
...I support this minaret ban. Islam is not European. Most European states are nation-states... one nation dominates the state... I don't get how these people can be angry because they are getting limited to their goals of changing the cultural landscape of the country.
One thing that bothers me is what arab countries are saying...
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=12&dd=23&nav_id=63982
Wait a minute now... they are funding the construction of these minarets and call it their minarets... then congrats to the swiss for stopping the spread of these foreign things. The muslims in switzerland can't build these on their own. They get millions from the middle east to do this. How is this then swiss? The middle easterners do not even look at the minarets as swiss, but as theirs.
It looks like others might have such a referendum. Lets see how far this will go.
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world-article.php?yyyy=2009&mm=12&dd=03&nav_id=63488
France: Almost 50 pct would ban minarets
3 December 2009 | 17:09 | Source: Tanjug
PARIS -- Almost one in two French citizen is opposing the construction of minarets and even mosques in France.
This is according to a poll conducted by the French Institute for Public Opinion (IFOP).
46 percent of the participants in the poll were in favor if banning the construction of minarets, 40 percents supported the idea, while 14 percent were indecisive.
41 percent spoke against the construction of mosques in France altogether, 19 percent supported it, 35 percent stated they were indifferent and four percent did not answer, the French media reported.
Only 22 percent were against the construction of mosques in a similar poll conducted in 2001.
The debate on in France was launched after the Swiss citizens voted to ban new minarets in their country.
Many French politicians condemned the results of the Swiss referendum.
However, the ruling party Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) is "questioning the justification of the structures", whike ultra-right National Front led by Jean-Marie Le Pen is requesting the same type of referendum in France, but one which would apply to immigration more widely, news agencies are reporting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...s-country-assert-Catholic-roots.html?ITO=1490
Now Italy may follow Switzerland with referendum on Islamic minarets
By Nick Pisa
Last updated at 2:19 PM on 01st December 2009
Italy could be the next European country to consider a referendum on the building of Islamic minarets following the Swiss vote to ban the structures.
Cabinet minister Roberto Calderoli, of the xenophobic Northern League, said Italy should confirm its Roman Catholic roots and hold a vote as soon as possible.
Like the Swiss, Italian voters can have a direct say on an issue if a minimum number of signatures are gathered calling for a referendum.
The League is expected to now start the process for a referendum, despite the Vatican expressing unease over the Swiss vote.
Official Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano compared it to a decision by the European Court of Human Rights last month to ban crucifixes from Italian classrooms - a decision that provoked widespread outrage in Italy.
Calderoli said the Swiss decision was a triumphant 'yes to bell towers and no to minarets' that served as an important example for other European countries losing touch with their Christian identities.
He added: 'Respect for other religions is important, but we've got to put the brakes on Muslim propaganda or else we'll end up with an Islamic political party like they have in Spain.'
Others within the anti-immigration Northern League have called for a cross to be inserted on the Italian national flag to symbolise the deep Christian roots of the country.
Italy has one of the tallest minarets in Europe standing just a metre shorter than St Peter's Basilica, at the Mosque and Islamic Cultural Centre in Rome.
The country has around 1.2 million Muslims, making Islam the second religion after Catholicism.
The Northern League have frequently made headlines for their views on Islam and immigration, most notably during the Danish cartoon row in 2006, when Mr Calederoli wore a T-shirt emblazoned with one of the anti-Islamic images.
They have also allowed pigs to graze over sites where mosques were earmarked in order to make them unholy, while recently, the Northern League was accused of racism after it emerged that a local scheme to rid a town of illegal immigrants had been nicknamed 'White Christmas'.
Today the United Nations called Switzerland's ban on new minarets 'clearly discriminatory' and deeply divisive.
The Swiss foreign minister acknowledged today the government was very concerned about how the vote would affect the country's image.
UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said Sunday's referendum to outlaw the construction of minarets in Switzerland was the product of 'anti-foreigner scare-mongering'.
The criticism from Pillay, whose office is based in the Swiss city of Geneva, comes after an outcry from Muslim countries, Switzerland's European neighbours and human rights watchdogs since 57.5 per cent of the Swiss population ratified the ban.
The Swiss government opposed the initiative but has sought to defend it as an action not against Islam or Muslims, but one aimed at improving integration and fighting extremism.
'These are extraordinary claims when the symbol of one religion is targeted,' Pillay said in a statement.
She said she was saddened to see xenophobic arguments gain such traction with Swiss voters despite their 'long-standing support of fundamental human rights.'
The referendum doesn't affect Switzerland's four existing minarets, or the ability of Muslims to practice their religion. It only bans the towers used to put out the Islamic call to prayer.
But wealthy Arab tourists might think twice now about spending their money in Geneva and other Swiss cities, and the neutral country's efforts to mediate in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could also suffer.
In Athens today, Swiss Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey said the government was worried about the ban.
'We are very concerned with this referendum. The reality of our societies in Europe and throughout the world is that each limitation on the coexistence of different cultures and religions also endangers our security,' Calmy-Rey said during a meeting of foreign ministers of the 56-nation Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.
'Provocation risks triggering other provocation and risks inflaming extremism,' she added.
Sunday's referendum, which was backed by nationalist parties, forced the government to declare illegal the building of any new minarets.