Northern Light
Superstar
I don't think the above is a helpful comment. You're capable of much better.
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- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
I don't think the above is a helpful comment. You're capable of much better.
rbt
Senior Member
Agreed. Reducing the human component in fare inspections is the path of least resistance but I doubt they'll let the revenue go that easily. Random number generators (1 in 4 passengers gets searched for example) and randomly assigned inspection locations are ways of doing that.
I expect additional electronic inspections will be implemented too such as a subway tap-out requirement and perhaps gates at some transfer points which are currently barrier free (Spadina streetcar & Subway for example). Of course, single-trip presto tickets need to be implemented for this.
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TheKingEast
Senior Member
Trump was elected because he relied on xenophobic, homophobic and racist rhetoric to strike fear in his uneducated, the lowest common denominator and there you go!
As far as the article, seems like many are OK with discrimination as long as it fits whatever narrative they have about said group. Personally of the fare evaders I've seen get written up, majority have been non-black. But I'm not keeping score like some people.
I hate articles like this. You get nothing but people trying to explain away why THIS isn't racism because the stats! The stats! My beliefs! My beliefs!
MisterF
Senior Member
In a city where 3 of the 4 major newspapers tend to lean right, (some more than others), it amazes me that anyone still argues that there's a left wing bias in the mainstream media.
In any case, the fact that racism has become a left/right issue is part of the problem.
Neutrino
Senior Member
Funny because Trump was handed the election by two time Obama voters in the rust belt. But don't let facts get in the way of the ideological narrative.
Still waiting for an actual argument. Seems like you're the one doing what you accuse others of doing.
Racism is not a left/right problem. It's an issue of far left equality of outcome identity politics activists vs the rest us in the rational left and right. Thankfully there is a growing movement on the rational, centre left to clean house and push back against the radical identitarians. Massively overblown (and frequently flat out false) claims of pervasive, awful systemic racism when we live in what's probably the most enlightened, egalitarian and least racist society in all of human history are quite unethical.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
There is absolutely nothing wrong with aiming for equality of outcome - we hold it as an ideal in some of our most cherished policies (e.g. public healthcare). Just because a society is one of the most enlightened, egalitarian and least racist doesn't mean there is no systemic racism necessarily - and you don't have to agree with some of the more radical interpretations of identity politics to observe that. It does not mean that I agree with the BLM position - but it also does not mean we can simply dismiss everything by labelling it all as identity politics and leaving it at that.
And for all the talk about identity politics, I have to say you surely adopted a lot of that "us vs. them".
AoD
And for all the talk about identity politics, I have to say you surely adopted a lot of that "us vs. them".
AoD
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Neutrino
Senior Member
No, I am in favour of a universalizing, not an us versus them narrative. Which is why it's important to acknowledge that the debate is being hijacked by a small group of vocal and uninformed activists; that the us versus them is in some sense a false dichotomy.
Of course, when it comes to political debate, there is always the risk of increasing polarization and I am keenly aware of that when I approach these issues. Obviously, my own arguments will contribute to this polarization. But it's done only to draw attention to the activist coterie.
Equality of outcome in the political, social and economic realms (as argued by the activist left) is neither possible nor desirable and this is precisely the narrative being pushed in so many places at the current moment.
Of course, when it comes to political debate, there is always the risk of increasing polarization and I am keenly aware of that when I approach these issues. Obviously, my own arguments will contribute to this polarization. But it's done only to draw attention to the activist coterie.
Equality of outcome in the political, social and economic realms (as argued by the activist left) is neither possible nor desirable and this is precisely the narrative being pushed in so many places at the current moment.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
That's a bunch of word salad that implied neutrality but really wasn't - it is an attempt to stake out the "rational" and then implying everything else as "irrational" that is highly questionable in my books.
You don't have to agree with sensationalist claims that "TTC is racist!" to agree that a) there needs to be an effective fare management regime and b) perhaps the current way of doing things can be improved.
AoD
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Neutrino
Senior Member
Not addressing a single argument, but sure.
Word salad is the domain of the activist left, not me. I prefer clear and simple language.
Anyway, you can lock this thread because clearly it's going nowhere. Don't say I didn't warn you when the "everything is racist" brigade rolls around.
Oh, I agree entirely. My whole point is that such nuance will be missing from sensationalized claims from the activist caste.
Word salad is the domain of the activist left, not me. I prefer clear and simple language.
Anyway, you can lock this thread because clearly it's going nowhere. Don't say I didn't warn you when the "everything is racist" brigade rolls around.
Oh, I agree entirely. My whole point is that such nuance will be missing from sensationalized claims from the activist caste.
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gabe
Senior Member
Trump was elected by the electoral college, basically. He lost the popular vote by millions, and other people just didn’t give a crap about the importance of voting. Lowest voter turnout in 20 years.
rbt
Senior Member
Too many people made noise and TTC decided to do what most agencies have done, they're no longer collecting that information.
So, now we'll never know if it was racism at front-lines (specific officers or groups of officers), management (directing to monitor specific locations), board (through poorly thought out policy), or coincidental (low income persons commit fare fraud more often; happen to include more black than the general population*).
* this in itself is a problem, but not necessarily one with TTC procedures.
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TheKingEast
Senior Member
I have no desire to engage in a debate with you. You’re not worth the effort.
Hopkins123
Senior Member
How come anytime an election doesn't produce the results they were expecting or hoping for it's because of "low voter turnout"? The reality of the 2016 elections is that more voters wanted a right-wing winner than a leftist one (the collective Republican, Libertarian and Constitution Party vote outnumbered the Democrats and Greens by over 1.5 million votes).
In a country where 120 million are minors and ergo can't vote, having a turnout of 135 million is very impressive. The "supermajority" rule of Trudeau where only 10 million Canadians bothered to elect his 2015 party pales in comparison.
Neutrino
Senior Member
Making actual arguments is hard. Keep trying, I'm sure you'll get there one day.
ShonTron
Moderator
Egad. I cringe whenever a thread like this occurs on Urban Toronto.
That, and the Democrats weren't fired up by HRC. That's a big reason why Harper won a majority in 2011: the Liberals had little to offer and Ignatieff simply didn't connect. Liberal voters stayed home, those on the right might have voted CPC (Martin/Manley/Morneau Liberals) or those towards the left might have voted NDP. The Liberals came back in 2015 fired up.
A lot of Democrats simply stayed home in 2016.
That, and the Democrats weren't fired up by HRC. That's a big reason why Harper won a majority in 2011: the Liberals had little to offer and Ignatieff simply didn't connect. Liberal voters stayed home, those on the right might have voted CPC (Martin/Manley/Morneau Liberals) or those towards the left might have voted NDP. The Liberals came back in 2015 fired up.
A lot of Democrats simply stayed home in 2016.