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Whoaccio

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There have been a few threads lately along the general theme of if you were dictator of Toronto, what would you do for transit? Thats fun enough, but what about if you had to plan Toronto's transit network from scratch. Lets say we had no subways, no GO lines, no highways, no streetcars. Maybe not even an airport. There are a lot of assumptions people can make, but lets just set a budget of about 50b 2009$ and take as given that the spacial layout of Toronto would look more less identical to its current state.

My original reason for this was that I'm generally not a fan of the tram network. I'm sure it could be done, but there are historical and geographic reasons that perpetuate the network in addition to its values as transit. So, if we were building from scratch I can't imagine that we would spend money on building train tracks through short blocks with stops 50m apart at points. Maybe we wouldn't have a Yonge subway, but multiple busways leading into the city from all over the city . Maybe the Sheppard subway would be LRT. So, yea, basically an orgy of counter factual transit history. Is there a Jonbar Hinge to it?

Don't be shy to make assumptions and throw together maps.
 
There have been a few threads lately along the general theme of if you were dictator of Toronto, what would you do for transit? Thats fun enough, but what about if you had to plan Toronto's transit network from scratch. Lets say we had no subways, no GO lines, no highways, no streetcars. Maybe not even an airport. There are a lot of assumptions people can make, but lets just set a budget of about 50b 2009$ and take as given that the spacial layout of Toronto would look more less identical to its current state.

My original reason for this was that I'm generally not a fan of the tram network. I'm sure it could be done, but there are historical and geographic reasons that perpetuate the network in addition to its values as transit. So, if we were building from scratch I can't imagine that we would spend money on building train tracks through short blocks with stops 50m apart at points. Maybe we wouldn't have a Yonge subway, but multiple busways leading into the city from all over the city . Maybe the Sheppard subway would be LRT. So, yea, basically an orgy of counter factual transit history. Is there a Jonbar Hinge to it?

Don't be shy to make assumptions and throw together maps.

$50B would give you very little service to the WHOLE 416 like there is to day. You would only get about 40 miles of subway. You would need a fleet of 15,000 buses to carry the rider that TTC carries today with no subway or streetcars.

Since labour eats up 80% of the operating cost as well trying to find 45,000 drivers, Good luck.

LRT/Subway/BRT/Buses/rail all have their place based on ridership demands.

I see another 100km of subway in TO as well 300km of LRT and 100km of BRT.
 
Nice job, Whoaccio! I was planning to start a thread somewhere along your line. I was going to propose a challenge to create a subway system for Toronto if you could dig anywhere you want (if any of you are interested in doing something like this perhaps you can start a new thread).

I think these challenges would help to get those "armchair transit planners" among us to start thinking outside the box. Do we really need high-order transit routes that need to follow main thoroughfares? Or should we create a system that is built regardless of geography or topography or even geology, as long as people can take the shortest distance to get from point A to B.
 
$50B would give you very little service to the WHOLE 416 like there is to day. You would only get about 40 miles of subway. You would need a fleet of 15,000 buses to carry the rider that TTC carries today with no subway or streetcars.

Since labour eats up 80% of the operating cost as well trying to find 45,000 drivers, Good luck.

LRT/Subway/BRT/Buses/rail all have their place based on ridership demands.

I see another 100km of subway in TO as well 300km of LRT and 100km of BRT.

$50 billion for 40 miles is almost $800 million per km... sounds like Giambrone accounting.
 
$50B would give you very little service to the WHOLE 416 like there is to day. You would only get about 40 miles of subway. You would need a fleet of 15,000 buses to carry the rider that TTC carries today with no subway or streetcars

Okay, 75b. It doesn't really matter, just try to be realistic and actually cost out proposals. I mean, lets not have people suggesting that we build 500km of subways and an LRT on every side street. I don't plan on going through the major transit projects in our history and trying to create a sum figure in 2009$, but just use common sense and intuition to make sure the proposal is realistic. Counter factual history isn't supposed to be science fiction.
 
I tried starting it, but then I realized that doing this without totally screwing over Toronto would take many a week to come up with. When doing this challenge, one has to take into account the amount of people in the 905 who will be using cars to get around, as well as the impacts that increased transit in the core will do for transit in the suburbs. You have to think of highways, Go, Subways, BRT, LRT and all keeping in mind how things in the 416 developed based on Transit. My idea was reduced to was Scrap the Streetcars -> Build Queen Subway as a game plan.

Good work anyways Whoaccio. It sure will be interesting to see what some people do, and I'll have to get my grand plan all sorted out. Hmm, maybe I could test-drive it with SimCity...

Oh and wyliepoon, I like the sound of your idea, simply focusing on the higher order TTC-type transit. That would definitely be less stressful than building Toronto's transit totally from scratch :p
 
There are a lot of assumptions people can make, but lets just set a budget of about 50b 2009$ and take as given that the spacial layout of Toronto would look more less identical to its current state.

This part is hard for two reasons. Firstly, Toronto would look much differently with even some minor changes to the transportation system we have now. Secondly, the money saved on not building some projects could go to pay for some others.

Just off the top of my head, I would have invested in highways as much. The 407 and the Allen, in particular, would never have been built. This would've saved us a tonne of money, over $100 billion alone on the 407 (as was mentioned in another thread).

I would leave the Yonge and University subway lines as they are, but the Spadina extension would continue under either Bathurst or Dufferin as the Allen would no longer be there. This would change development patterns in the Northwest substantially I would imagine. I would have York Univeristy built closer to the realigned Spadina line, and its built form would integrate better into the surrounding area.

I would imagine the amount of money saved on the 407 could significantly expand GO service. I would build a suburb-to-suburb GO line that would split off from the Lakeshore line between Oakville and Clarkson stations, travel more or less beside the 403 through MCC, up to the airport, then following where the 407 is now through York Region to near the Rouge Valley where it would rejoin the Lakeshore line. In addition, a GO Crosstown service through Toronto would be built. Interlining on this much larger GO network would reduce as many transfers as possible for the largest amount of people.

The DRL would have to be built from maybe even as far north as Markham, down Don Mills to a (more or less identical) B-D line, through downtown, and up the Weston sub to terminate somewhere in Rexdale or at the airport.

Any extra money, would go to Eglinton and Sheppard subways. The first from Eglinton GO to the airport, the second from the Spadina line to SCC. Through some LRT and BRT in there, and I think it would much easier to move around the city region. I probably spent way too much there though :p
 
Ok, Toronto's crosstown arterials suck. The grid should be a through road every 0.5 km not every 2, and these through roads should be narrower and slower neighbourhood type roads, in the style of College street. Then a few wide grand avenues as spokes radiating out of downtown.

And I'll turn back the clock on suburban developments. I'll be Premier of Ontario, and I'll say okay developers, you want to build a new subdivision? Fine. You can even build McMansions, but before you can do that you have to contribute to the building of regional rail to your part of town.
 
I'm going to start at the very beginning and fantasize about what I wish Toronto had to start off with.

1793-1833 - "Here we shall build the finest city in the empire" - population: zero - 50,000

John Graves Simcoe leads a band of idealistic, but educated Empire Loyalists from the former American colonies to the western shores of Lake Ontario and decrees that the heart of the British Empire shall be built according to the most modern city planning principles. In a major coup, Simcoe lures James Craig away from Edinburgh to begin planning the "New Towne of York" with sweeping Georgian terraces and grand vistas to the major public buildings of the day. The whole plan is conceived to "one up" L'Enfant's plans for the American capital of Washington. While it takes about 30 years to bear fruit, and is temporarily arrested by the invasion of the Americans in 1812, York becomes the dominant city of British North America and boasts the finest architecture in the colonies. The street plan is not based on a garrison grid but includes ceremonial avenues placed at diagonals heading out of the cardinal directions as well as to the northeast and northwest. The city is girdled by a genteel, wide, tree-lined avenue called "The Royal Mile" and squares are intermittently placed within the central city and are ringed by some of the most ornate townhouses.

1855-1885 - The Railroad Age

By 1855, railroad tycoons begin planning their central operations into the vast North American wilderness from their Toronto drawing rooms. Though the city is now only 1/2 built-out to Craig's original plan, careful consideration is given to make sure that railway rights of way defer to the future layout of city streets. During this heady age, Toronto will quadruple its population to 360,000. In 1870, work begins on the enormous Victoria Station, which serves trains bound to the east: Montreal, Quebec, Halifax and the new capital of Ottawa. Niagara station serves passengers headed southwest toward Hamilton, London and Detroit. Not to be outdone, the cornerstone of the Pacific and Western station is laid in 1885 on the Royal Mile for trains heading west along the Transcontinental.

1895-1910 - The Metropolitan Electric Railway

The eccentric industrialist Horace Cornelius MacTavish rapidly begins buying farmland in Etobicoke and Scarborough townships and plans an elevated suburban railroad to start servicing these areas. A burgeoning and cramped city of 1,000,000 by 1890, Toronto has a density approaching that of Lower Manhattan and the most crowded districts of London and Paris. MacTavish extolls the virtues of "country living" and begins marketing his neighbourhoods of neat and tidy rowhouses to the middle classes. Acquiring the rights to new hydroelectric dams on the Niagara river, MacTavish quickly converts his railroad to electric operation and begins offering special, luxury homes that are wired for the twentieth century. Over 150 miles of electric railway are built during this period. At the same time, rivals begin operation of the "City and District" underground railway lines. Not to be outdone, an even more eccentric, and possibly syphilitic, industrialist - Andrew Baines McNaughton - completes a circle line in a misguided attempt to undermine the operation of competing suburban railway companies. The plan fails miserably, but Torontonians are left with a very useful suburban connector.

---

That's Part 1. I'll be back with Part II later.

PS: Sorry if I'm not following the rules at all. I just like writing parallel histories.
 
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Haha Hipster! That's amazing. I kinda like your way of doing it better than starting with Toronto as is. I can't wait for part two :D
 
I'll admit that's not quite what I had in mind, but it is certainly interesting enough. I recognize a few of those names (Simcoe and Craig), but are they all real people or are some fictional? I agree that it would be nice if we had a few diagonal boulevards radiating out from the center (its still not too late to pull a Napolean III...) and a few "grand" boulevards. The one slightly unrealistic part thus far was that your Toronto of 1910 will have more electrified rail lines than the Toronto of 2010. :)

Anyways, i'm a bit busy now but hopefully over the weekend I can throw together something. If this thread goes better than thinly disguised criticisms or promotions of TC, maybe there could be some kind competition for who could present the best alternate transit history or something like that.
 
I'll do my alternate transit history starting around 1900.

Background (all real history)

In 1900, of course, Toronto is a booming city of abour 400,000. It has recently completed the electrification of its street railway system, which is the second most impressive in Canada. Private interests have also built radial railways to Port Credit, Lake Simcoe, and West Hill. A second small street railway has also developed in the newly-annexed town of West Toronto, and in the midst of completing lines to Woodbridge and Guelph.

In 1907, Sir Adam Beck, the founder of the Ontario Hydro-Electric Commission decides that he wants to create a mass network of interurban railways across southern Ontario under the HEPC auspices. He starts by purchasing the Windsor electric railway system, then the Guelph street railway.

The Public Sector gets into the Traction Game

Burdened by their efforts to build a competing transcontinental railway, MacKenzie and Mann, who also control the Toronto radial railways as well as the Toronto Suburban and Niagara, St. Catharines and Toronto Railways, sell these assets to an eager Beck and HEPC to focus on their mainline railway business. Realizing the futility of competing with the Grand Truck Pacific in trying to compete with the CPR, Grand Trunk and Canadian Northern merge in 1912.

Beck continues to develop his public railway empire, purchasing the assets of the London and Port Stanley Railway, the Thames Valley Railway between Ingersoll and Woodstock, the Grand River and Lake Erie and Northern Railway, and the assets of the Dominion Hydro interests, the last major private power producer which also happens to own the Hamilton Street Railway and its radials to Oakville, Brantford, Beamsville and Dundas.

Meanwhile, in Toronto, the city is unhappy with its decision with awarding the street railway charter to MacKenzie and Mann, who strangely kept the Toronto Railway Company despite selling all of their other traction enterprises. In 1912, a competing firm, realizing that the franchise for the street railway only provides for city streets, proposes a streetcar subway under Yonge and Bay Streets from the New Union Station to St. Clair Avenue, surfacing using the Belt Line Railway alignment to service the new Village of Forest Hill and areas annexed by Toronto since 1891 that the TRC refuses to serve.

The City, already starting work on a series of public-owned lines in areas not served by the TRC, is interested and persuaded by a Mr. R.C. Harris, allows a bond issue to guarantee the construction of the subway tunnel, with the agreement that Toronto Civic Railways are permitted to use the route. While a Queen Subway is proposed, that project is pushed back. Shovels enter the ground in late 1913.

By 1916, Canada is deeply involved in the war effort and infrastructure construction slows. However, the Prince Edward Viaduct, overseen by Harris, is constructed with a lower deck to permit future use by transit vehicles.

A Subway City

In 1918, 2 years behind schedule, Toronto's first subway opens between the vacant Union Station building and Avenue Road and St. Clair. TCR-operated streetcar trains operate via the St. Clair streetcar right of way from Caledonia Road to Avenue Road. As the TRC's franchise comes into effect on Avenue Road, a tunnel portal is built here. Under Avenue Road and following Davenport, Bay and Yonge (turning east just north of College Street) to a loop under Union Station, with stops at Yonge/King, Queen (with connections to Eaton's and Simpson's), Dundas, Gerrard, College/Yonge, Bay/Grenville, Wellesley, St. Mary, Bloor, Yorkville, Davenport, Dupont, Poplar Plains, Farnham and St. Clair. A second route, following Davenport Road from Toronto Junction enters the subway at a new portal at Bathurst Street (with a station at Spadina Road), directly competing with the TRC's western routes.

The private firm, known as the Toronto Subway Company, begins buying land north of Eglinton Avenue between Bathurst and the CN Newmarket Subdivision for land development surrounding extensions of its tracks. In the mid 1920s, a "garden suburb" opens up along the Belt Line corridor, with a mix of industry, apartments, strip retail and various housing types, with very respectable dwellings, as a larger counter to the MacKenzie and Mann's Leaside on the east side of Toronto. Other private developers begin development of the Oakwood/Rogers area.

Meanwhile, the HEPC connects and consolidates its new vast array of electric railways. It proposes a new four-track high-speed interurban to enter Toronto from the west, with interurbans entering downtown Toronto directly via the Exhibition, with a new depot on the site of the Old Union Station. Beck gets approval, and this is opened by 1924. Now, one could take high-speed interurbans from Weston/Woodbridge, Hamilton, Kitchener via Brantford, Kitchener via Guelph, Brampton (via a new spur from Churchville). Express trolleys serving Mimico, New Toronto, Long Branch, Lakeview and Port Credit use the route from the Humber River. The interurban express line becomes two tracks west of the Humber, following the "Middle Road" allingment as far as Hurontario Street, then following the Lakeshore Road on a private ROW to Oakville, Burlington and into Hamilton.

Towns around Toronto such as Islington, Cooksville, Port Credit, Woodbridge, Brampton, Streetsville (via another spur off the Guelph interurban) become somewhat attractive to long-distance commuters and grow through the 1920s. Unfortunately, Beck was unable to complete interurbans to the east, and abandons an effort to construct an interurban to Oshawa via the Taylor Creek ravine.

In 1921, the City of Toronto takes over the TRC and the Toronto Subway Company's rail asset (the TSC remains active as a real estate/development firm) and consolidates those with the TCR, creating the Toronto Transportation Commission. With all of its assets consolidated, it takes full advantage of the subway, adding a new branch tunnel from Bay and Davenport to Yonge Street, burrowing underground to Lawson, just north of St. Clair, with stops at Yonge/Belmont, MacPherson, the CP North Toronto Station, Woodlawn, and St. Clair/Yonge. North Toronto and new Mount Pleasant Streetcars use the subway, while local Yonge cars serve the surface between St. Clair and the docks. Streetcar trains of two or three cars run through the subway every 90 seconds on five distinct routes.

Also, in 1921, Canadian National Railways is formed by the Dominion Government after the joint Grand Trunk/Canadian Northern company collapses due to financial problems from rapid expansion and pressures of the Great War.

With a reliable, quick route to the downtown, suburbs such as North Toronto, Forest Hill, and Fairbank explode, attracting new industrial development, and turning into compact, yet attractive suburban satellites. Downtown, new office towers take advantage of the subway and the quick connections from outer suburbs via the fast interurbans and steam railways, who cut much of their local commuter milk runs in response to the interurbans.

Widespread ownership of automobiles begins by the 1920s. While as Toronto experiences an unprecedented boom due to inexpensive electricity from nearby Niagara Falls, an advanced transportation network, natural resources and agriculture, the population surge and traffic congestion overtaxes the transit system. The Queen Subway again becomes attractive, and work begins on the tunnel from the Don River to Strachan in 1925. It opens in 1928.

In 1928, the Toronto urban area, Long Branch to Birchmount Road up to Lawrence Avenue has a population of 1,200,000. The City has a population of about 700,000.

The largest cities in the GTA outside of the current City of Toronto are: Oshawa, 28,000; Brampton, 8500; Port Credit, 7500; Richmond Hill, 6500, Whitby, 5200; Burlington 5000; Oakville, 4800.

Map of System as of 1928.


NEXT: The Depression and Post-War Years.
 
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