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Would you buy an EV from a Chinese OEM?

  • Yes

    Votes: 16 16.8%
  • No

    Votes: 63 66.3%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 16 16.8%

  • Total voters
    95
The pressure to approve autonomous trucking will be very high. Jurisdictions don't want to become uncompetitive, and having higher cost shipping contributes to that.
Pretty sure some jurisdictions like Florida and California have already legalized autonomous vehicles. Most jurisdictions, even backwards/reluctant ones, will legalize them very soon after they see autonomous vehicles working somewhere else.
 
2019 Autos unloaded - 419,566 inbound, 402 outbound - That implies a huge volume of empty auto carriers as well as the loads moving eastwards.
Auto traffic is going to disappear, full stop. Transport as a service means people won't be buying cars which means that cars won't need to be transported. The smaller amounts of autonomous shuttles that will remain be able to deliver themselves from the factory.

Also:

CN has publicly addressed autonomous trucking as a considerable threat, so their investment in TuSimple makes a lot of sense in the context stated above.

If I was a railroad like CSX or Norfolk Southern who primarily deals with shorter lengths of haul, I would be feeling a lot of existential dread right now. Same if I was a shortline.
 
Another potential impact to regulatory approval, particularly in relation to TuSimple, is that the parent company is based in China. Whether the concern/paranoia is well founded, aka Huawei, US regulators may decide to take a strategic approach to the potential risk to the economy. A few fleets, even a government agency like the USPS may be one thing, but they may have concerns with turning over the keys to transportation kingdom.

As in many things, 'transportation as a service' will catch on in dense urban areas long before it does in the rurals.
 
Another potential impact to regulatory approval, particularly in relation to TuSimple, is that the parent company is based in China. Whether the concern/paranoia is well founded, aka Huawei, US regulators may decide to take a strategic approach to the potential risk to the economy. A few fleets, even a government agency like the USPS may be one thing, but they may have concerns with turning over the keys to transportation kingdom.

As in many things, 'transportation as a service' will catch on in dense urban areas long before it does in the rurals.
That's probably true just because fleet operators want high utilization and low dead head distance between paying trips, particularly when demand exceeds the supply of AVs. But not because rural areas are that difficult. Tesla's beta Full Self-Driving software handles rural roads pretty easily, with some minor tweaks needed for passenger comfort (on narrower dirt roads, drive in the middle and avoid potholes, move to the edge when you see oncoming traffic at the right distance). Low conflicting traffic and simple road structure you see in rural areas is not that challenging. Unless you mean extreme remote areas (like 3 hour drive outside Yellowknife) but those are so small a share of the market as to be irrelevant to this discussion. It matters not one but to someone in Toronto if a person 400 km from Yellowknife is still driving their pickup manually.
 
Not AV related but an interesting problem for the railroads:


Trucks are electrifying and fast. Given that the lifecycle of a truck is about 5 years, it is conceivable that by 2030, the majority of trucks will be electric. At that point, if rail isn't electrified, shipping freight by rail will be WORSE for the environment than by road.

Still, even when rail is electrified, when road is as well, then the environmental arguement in favour of rail will no longer hold true meaning that shippers who currently look to use rail for its environmental credentials will have reason to look elsewhere.

The Tesla Semi is going to enter production this year and given that no other truck comes even close to it for range, Tesla is poised to absolutely dominate the trucking industry. The big problem is that Elon Musk has pitted the Semi against rail at the unveiling. Elon sees the rail industry as vulnerable and wants to take market share. Elon is someone I wouldn't want to be up against.

The rail industry should take notice and start making plans for the worst case scenario.
 
Not AV related but an interesting problem for the railroads:


Trucks are electrifying and fast. Given that the lifecycle of a truck is about 5 years, it is conceivable that by 2030, the majority of trucks will be electric. At that point, if rail isn't electrified, shipping freight by rail will be WORSE for the environment than by road.

Still, even when rail is electrified, when road is as well, then the environmental arguement in favour of rail will no longer hold true meaning that shippers who currently look to use rail for its environmental credentials will have reason to look elsewhere.

The Tesla Semi is going to enter production this year and given that no other truck comes even close to it for range, Tesla is poised to absolutely dominate the trucking industry. The big problem is that Elon Musk has pitted the Semi against rail at the unveiling. Elon sees the rail industry as vulnerable and wants to take market share. Elon is someone I wouldn't want to be up against.

The rail industry should take notice and start making plans for the worst case scenario.
You really have a hate boner for trains huh?
 
You really have a hate boner for trains huh?
Uh no, far from it. I am an avid railfan, but it is important to recognize that the industry is vulnerable and is going to face some of its most formidable challenges of its entire existance over the next 15 years.

I also appreciate transport technology so when you have people in the AV and EV space pitting their tech against rail, there is cause for serious concern because it shows that the best and brightest view rail as vulnerable.

Elon Musk has been rather vocal in his distaste for rail transport, especially after his famous blow-ups with UP. It is the reason why Tesla ships all of their vehicles from the factory out on trucks, unlike the rest of the industry. Just as Elon Musk and Tesla are the placs you look to to see the future of automobiles and transport in general, to see them betting against rail is a problem.
 
Just as Elon Musk and Tesla are the placs you look to to see the future of automobiles and transport in general, to see them betting against rail is a problem.
Ahahahahahahaha. No. We should be looking at data, and the movement of industry sectors as a whole, to see the future of transport. Lots of companies are investing into electric and autonomous vehicles, but I'm much more inclined to take the word of companies that have robust research and development teams with decades of experience than the guy shilling Dogecoin on Twitter.
 
Ahahahahahahaha. No. We should be looking at data, and the movement of industry sectors as a whole, to see the future of transport. Lots of companies are investing into electric and autonomous vehicles, but I'm much more inclined to take the word of companies that have robust research and development teams with decades of experience than the guy shilling Dogecoin on Twitter.
What is with this hate on Elon Musk?? Say what you want about what he says on Twitter, but implying that he and his companies have no experience or knowledge is ridiculous.

Do you really think the companies that have gone from nothing to creating the best EVs and rockets in the world in 10-15 years don’t have “robust research and development teams?”

Do you really think the guy that led both of those companies at once doesn’t have experience and knowledge?

When we looked at the introduction of smartphones, should we have looked at “industry sectors as a whole” and the companies with “decades of experience” (as in, Nokia, Blackberry etc, which were basically the entire industry) or should we have looked at the newest, most innovative companies led by the brightest visionaries (Apple, Google, etc)?
 
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Musk is quite polarizing. I think it blinds some people to his faults and exaggerations, and others to the disruption he brings about.
 
Musk is quite polarizing. I think it blinds some people to his faults and exaggerations, and others to the disruption he brings about.
Musk is a successful business man. However, because he sells cars, he is highly hostile to public transit. See the hyper loop, a boondoggle designed to fight the California HSR.
 
I'm not sure it is a hatred for Musk. He is a visionary and tech innovator who, like many others in recent and distant past, has made projections and statements, particularly regarding timelines, that have shown themselves to be, at the least 'optimistic' and sometimes, just plain wrong throughout history. It sometimes seems they feel that the public administration and regulatory world are simply standing in the way. Sometimes, his statements have run afoul of the SEC; sometimes they are given air just because he is who he is (Covid: just another type of common cold gone by April 2020).

No doubt AVs and EVs are coming but, in my opinion, just not with the speed and rate of penetration some believe.
 
Not AV related but an interesting problem for the railroads:


Trucks are electrifying and fast. Given that the lifecycle of a truck is about 5 years, it is conceivable that by 2030, the majority of trucks will be electric. At that point, if rail isn't electrified, shipping freight by rail will be WORSE for the environment than by road.

Still, even when rail is electrified, when road is as well, then the environmental arguement in favour of rail will no longer hold true meaning that shippers who currently look to use rail for its environmental credentials will have reason to look elsewhere.

The Tesla Semi is going to enter production this year and given that no other truck comes even close to it for range, Tesla is poised to absolutely dominate the trucking industry. The big problem is that Elon Musk has pitted the Semi against rail at the unveiling. Elon sees the rail industry as vulnerable and wants to take market share. Elon is someone I wouldn't want to be up against.

The rail industry should take notice and start making plans for the worst case scenario.
Any company that claims to be using rail over truck for environmental reasons is simply greenwashing and I wouldn't even assume it was important as a business consideration at all.

As mentioned, the reduction in oil and gas will have a bigger affect on rail than AV or electric trucks. It is the similar to the subways vs AV buses argument, there is too much cargo to go all EV trucks. The most fragile position would likely be for short haul freight, by that I would think anything up to around 600KM. That could easily shift over to truck. If we are talking about Alberta to Ontario on rail, I'd say that's going to stay on rail.
 
Auto traffic is going to disappear, full stop. Transport as a service means people won't be buying cars which means that cars won't need to be transported. The smaller amounts of autonomous shuttles that will remain be able to deliver themselves from the factory.

Also:

CN has publicly addressed autonomous trucking as a considerable threat, so their investment in TuSimple makes a lot of sense in the context stated above.

If I was a railroad like CSX or Norfolk Southern who primarily deals with shorter lengths of haul, I would be feeling a lot of existential dread right now. Same if I was a shortline.
I'd want 'auto traffic is going to disappear' defined. Does that mean 100% of auto cargo on rail will disappear? By when would you say this would happen?

"Transport as a service means people won't be buying cars which means that cars won't need to be transported."
I am doubtful on this ever happening. This statement means that people living in Gooderham, Gravenhurst, Napanee, TImmins, and Cochrane will no longer be buying cars. This means that contractors that keep heavily tools in their trucks will no longer be buying vehicles. This means that those in landscaping will no longer be buying trucks. I feel that people will always be buying vehicles as the need will be there. If you live in the GTAH or Ottawa you might move down to 1 or no cars, otherwise I doubt that no personal vehicles on the road will happen anytime soon to be relevant.

It would be interesting if you wrote all the reasons why the scenarios like 'people won't be buying cars' would be wrong. Doing some steelmanning might give more insight into your views and the opposing views.
 
^Saying “people will stop buying autos altogether” is like saying “soon, all apartment renters will buy condos” (or vv). Markets are more complicated than that.

A great many people with a serviceable ICE vehicle will want to extract its full value before switching. Yes, it will be fun to give the AV a destination and chill, but a paid-for vehicle has value. Anyone with a driver’s license is likely willing to keep driving, so long as fuel is accessible and the price differential is not overwhelming. It will be 15 years before those recently built ICE vehicles wear out. As noted, many people will choose to own their own vehicle. (But yes, others will be quite happy to share).

AV’s are coming, but I’m not sensing a tidal wave - yet.

- Paul
 

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