[howl]

???? In your original analysis, you took your 7,500 and 39 buses, and then said "f you are trying to move 10,000 people an hour at peak times you need 56 BRTs running one every minute or 25 LRTs running every 2.4 minutes. In a dedicated right-of-way configuration like Ottawa's this is the limit of the BRTs". This clearly implies you think that Ottawa is getting 180 people on each bus. I can assure you when I've ridden the transitway in Ottawa, that there is no where near 180 people on each bus - I'd be surprised if it is 100 - unless something has dramatically changed!

The numbers are blatantly incorrect. They may be published, but there is no way that any agency is averaging this number of people on an 18-metre bus.

It's not technically possible using the vehicles and frequencies you've used. I'm not sure why you don't understand this.

Well, if you choose to believe that there's nothing I can do to stop you. The evidence is out there.

 

[howl]

Building any type of dedicated ROW BRT station without having it be 4 lanes through the station is a waste of time. I can't think of a single station along the dedicated ROW sections of the Transitway that aren't 4 lanes through the station. But yes, you're right. The higher the predicted ridership, the more design elements you need to incorporate in order to make it work.



And I personally think this is the way to go. Make a moderate investment in BRT, grow the ridership, and then upgrade key sections to LRT. And while Ottawa is upgrading to LRT, they will also be building 2x as many KMs of BRT in the next 20 years than they will LRT.

Changing a centre-of-street BRT to centre-of street LRT can be done - it's just a very slow, inefficient, and expensive process because you can only build a few blocks at a time. Replacing a dedicated lane BRT is a lot harder because the sections where buses can get on and off the system are much further apart. Ottawa will probably never be able to replace its existing BRT network with trains without closing entire routes down for a year or more, which is a non-starter. That's why their LRT's are on new lines, which luckily they have space for along old railway lines. Apparently (and no I can’t verify this - it was a discussion I had with a colleague) Curitiba’s BRT system is maxed out and they would love to upgrade to an LRT system, but because they use dedicated lanes they can’t without shutting whole lines down for an extended period, so for now they are stuck with a maxed out BRT system.

One of the biggest issues with LRT vs. BRT is the type of development it brings. LRT is perceived as permanent infrastructure and will usually generate substantial investment in new development. BRT is not perceived the same way, particularly if it's just diamond lanes painted down the centre of the road, and therefore will not normally create a huge jump in density. Therefore if you’re looking to generate development using transit you probably want to go with an LRT right off the bat. In the long term this will probably be a lot cheaper and it will certainly be more effective.

 

[CapitalSeven]

It seems that whenever someone says that something is a "non-starter" it's about to happen. Ottawa is about to embark on converting the bus transitway to LRT from Tunney's Pasture to Lebreton and Campus to Blair. About 9 km. And yes they will have to shut those stretches down for quite a while.

 

[gweed123]

Ottawa will probably never be able to replace its existing BRT network with trains without closing entire routes down for a year or more, which is a non-starter. That's why their LRT's are on new lines, which luckily they have space for along old railway lines.

Ummm... you do realize that for the DOTT project, everything that's not in the tunnel is using the existing Transitway ROW right? And even the N-S LRT would shut down the existing O-Train service for at least a couple of years?

 

[nfitz]

Well, if you choose to believe that there's nothing I can do to stop you.

Perhaps you simply are trying to keep the thread on topic by being silly?

Suggesting that we'd be able to run a peak-hour load of 7,500 with only 39 18-metre long buses per hour is beyond absurd. Not a single person here supports

The evidence is out there.

... an X-Files reference, how fitting.

Changing a centre-of-street BRT to centre-of street LRT can be done - it's just a very slow, inefficient, and expensive process because you can only build a few blocks at a time.

Why would you even build BRT in the first place, if a change to LRT is planned anytime soon. The BRT ROW would have to be significantly wider, so if you do a simple conversion, you'd end up with a lot of wasted space that could have been used for bike lanes, sidewalks, or parking.

Ottawa will probably never be able to replace its existing BRT network with trains without closing entire routes down for a year or more, which is a non-starter.

???? If it's a non-starter than why are they replacing part of the existing BRT network with LRT?

That's why their LRT's are on new lines

Your just making this stuff up, aren't you? Perhaps you could provide me some references to show that none of the Ottawa LRT is on the same ROW as the BRT?

I guess I've been had ... I hadn't realized we were being trolled all along! My hat is off to you!

 

[howl]

It seems that whenever someone says that something is a "non-starter" it's about to happen. Ottawa is about to embark on converting the bus transitway to LRT from Tunney's Pasture to Lebreton and Campus to Blair. About 9 km. And yes they will have to shut those stretches down for quite a while.

I stand corrected then.

How are they re-routing the existing services?

 

[Justin10000]

The warning sign for me was when Howl said one 18m bus could hold as many riders as one LRV. Well, he did try to be tricky by comparing one bus to a double LRV train..

 

[BMO]

I stand corrected then.

How are they re-routing the existing services?

I think they're looking into an extended O-Train service to provide some service relief, as well as rerouting existing route to the extended O-train line or otherwise.

 

[gweed123]

I stand corrected then.

How are they re-routing the existing services?

In the east they are widening the 417 between Nicholas Street and the 417/174 split to include HOV lanes (to be used by the buses). This was approved just last week, and will be up and running by 2015, when the Transitway is scheduled to be shut down for construction. In the west, they're going to run the buses along Scott Street. Not sure if they're widening the road or not, there's a patch of green between the existing Transitway trench and the existing street. Details on that part haven't been released yet.

It will be a minor inconvenience, but I think it'll work pretty well. Tunnel construction is scheduled to start in 2013, so they're waiting as long as possible to shut down the Transitway, because the tunnel will take a couple years longer than the conversion.

 

[BMO]

@gweed123: could you clarify on the O-train potential expansion? I was under the impression they were trying to extend it since it would provide relief for the construction. I have a lot of information regarding the O-train, but seeing as how i don't have much knowledge of the Ottawa area, it's hard for me to put everything into context and see how all the different projects fit in with each other.

thanks in advance.

 

[gweed123]

@gweed123: could you clarify on the O-train potential expansion? I was under the impression they were trying to extend it since it would provide relief for the construction. I have a lot of information regarding the O-train, but seeing as how i don't have much knowledge of the Ottawa area, it's hard for me to put everything into context and see how all the different projects fit in with each other.

thanks in advance.

The current proposed diesel O-Train extension is just a stop-gap measure to increase the reliability of the service, considering it's very clear that it won't be electrified until 2020 at the earliest. They did a few small upgrades to the system last summer, because remember the current O-Train was supposed to be stopped and upgraded to full LRT back in 2008. After that project was canned, they had to start thinking of ways to improve the service while still using the current diesel trains. The extension to Letrim is one of the things they came up with.

The N-S LRT is Part 3 of Phase 1 of Ottawa's TMP. Once the DOTT and West Extension are completed, they'll start on the N-S LRT (twin tracked and electrified the entire way, same technology as the E-W LRT). Like I said above, that probably won't start until 2020 at the earliest, hence the stop-gap improvements you heard about.

 

[BMO]

The current proposed diesel O-Train extension is just a stop-gap measure to increase the reliability of the service, considering it's very clear that it won't be electrified until 2020 at the earliest. They did a few small upgrades to the system last summer, because remember the current O-Train was supposed to be stopped and upgraded to full LRT back in 2008. After that project was canned, they had to start thinking of ways to improve the service while still using the current diesel trains. The extension to Letrim is one of the things they came up with.

The N-S LRT is Part 3 of Phase 1 of Ottawa's TMP. Once the DOTT and West Extension are completed, they'll start on the N-S LRT (twin tracked and electrified the entire way, same technology as the E-W LRT). Like I said above, that probably won't start until 2020 at the earliest, hence the stop-gap improvements you heard about.

cheers thanks for clarifying this gweed.

 

[Markster]

In the east they are widening the 417 between Nicholas Street and the 417/174 split to include HOV lanes (to be used by the buses). This was approved just last week, and will be up and running by 2015, when the Transitway is scheduled to be shut down for construction. In the west, they're going to run the buses along Scott Street. Not sure if they're widening the road or not, there's a patch of green between the existing Transitway trench and the existing street. Details on that part haven't been released yet.

It will be a minor inconvenience, but I think it'll work pretty well. Tunnel construction is scheduled to start in 2013, so they're waiting as long as possible to shut down the Transitway, because the tunnel will take a couple years longer than the conversion.

It should be mentioned that the Transitway basically parallels the Queensway east of Nicholas, and widening that stretch of the Queensway has been softly on the books for years. If it weren't for this, the conversion would have been an operational nightmare.

 

[gweed123]

It should be mentioned that the Transitway basically parallels the Queensway east of Nicholas, and widening that stretch of the Queensway has been softly on the books for years. If it weren't for this, the conversion would have been an operational nightmare.

Very true. They did a study for the widening of the entire Queensway back in the early 2000s. The first phase of the widening was to do from the 416 to Eagleson, which opened last year. They should be starting the widening from Eagleson to Hwy 7 soon, and the Nicholas to 174 widening will be complete by 2015.

But yes, unlike in the west where you have a relatively lightly used arterial to run it along (Scott St), no such arterial really exists in the east. The next street coming out of downtown heading east that actually crosses the Rideau River is Rideau St, which is far from ideal in terms of running a BRT down. It would by like trying to squeeze a 10,000 pphpd BRT down Queen Street. So this basically leaves them with 417 or bust.

In fact, the main condition to having the opening of the LRT moved up from 2019 to 2018 was the acceleration of the 417 widening. Once that was approved, the accelerated timeline was able to be implemented. And I do certainly see the irony in that a highway widening project actually accelerated the opening of a rapid transit project. Usually the two are mutually exclusive options.

 

[gweed123]

Funny how I mention this yesterday, and today it's on the main page of the Ottawa Citizen: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Province+earmarks+200M+widen+from+Nicholas+split/4906106/story.html