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  • Thread starter billy corgan19982
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Well, it sure is better than not having one at all.
Also, King+Bay has a daily life cycle that mimics that of the surrounding towers in the financial district; pretty much dead after five.
Is that your intersection of choice for the heart of downtown Toronto?

You’re missing the point… you’re wasting your time trying to convince us that Yonge and Dundas is not in the “heart of downtown†when any other possible candidate is a short and quick 5 to 10-minute walk away.
On the other hand, Place Blanche, pretty much the only gaudy place in Paris – and for pretty good reasons – is a 20-minute metro ride away from anything that could be called “central.â€

Though, how un-central is Piccadilly Circus? And, for that matter, what is the "heart of downtown London"? Or does it matter?

Maybe the whole problem is that your "what is the heart of downtown Toronto" argument is a splitting-hairs hack argument. Like, there has to be one, specific, all-purpose "heart of it all"--well, maybe the closest spiritual candidate is (naturally) Nathan Phillips Square, and it isn't perfect, but what is? Ultimately, "heart of the downtown" urban logic only serves dumb tourists and Sunday painter urbanists, anyway.

There is a reason why urban planning programs arrange for field trips to cities across North America and Europe. The purpose is to study and analyze other cities, draw inspiration therefrom, implement their successes and avoid their failures.

And Toronto, with its Jane Jacobs legacy-and-it-shows, isn't worthy of such positive-minded field-trip study and analysis?
 
phones, desktops and keyboards

Payphones perhaps! But basically you are the only one that touches your own phone, desk and keyboard.

But Hotel bedspreads aren't drycleaned very often so you can only imagine what disgusting things people do on those things. Most guys don't wash their hands after using the bathroom, so the first thing they touch is the handle on the door! And those that do wash, the first thing they touch is the taps!
 
Well, it sure is better than not having one at all.
Also, King+Bay has a daily life cycle that mimics that of the surrounding towers in the financial district; pretty much dead after five.
Is that your intersection of choice for the heart of downtown Toronto?

You’re missing the point… you’re wasting your time trying to convince us that Yonge and Dundas is not in the “heart of downtown†when any other possible candidate is a short and quick 5 to 10-minute walk away.
On the other hand, Place Blanche, pretty much the only gaudy place in Paris – and for pretty good reasons – is a 20-minute metro ride away from anything that could be called “central.â€

Yonge / Dundas is becoming the heart of the city. Perhaps it is a bit tacky and commercialized, but it is welcoming. You're more likely to start up a conversation with a stranger there, than you would be at King and Bay. Nathan Philips Square isn't this welcoming - I've always found it cold and unfriendly. Y / D is a great place to sit and relax! The fountains are nice, lots of places to eat, overall, I am pleased with the way it turned out!
 
The food court level was opened up today with a handful of places operating. The seating area in the northwest corner is pretty cool, with upholstered chairs and low tables close up to the windows. As for the restaurants, other than the Harvey's (which had a lineup) none of them seemed to be getting much attention. The complex as a whole was actually busier than I've ever seen it, tho it still doesn't seem to have nearly enough traffic to support the businesses.

I was there last evening at 8:00 or so. It's taking shape quite nicely. The Jack Astors had a Lineup to get seated. Once everything is opened, I am sure there'll be plenty of business to go around.
 
It’s completely ridiculous for Toronto to view itself as a city in the same league as Paris, London, Tokyo, or New York. It doesn’t even compare in any significant urban aspect imaginable. Instead, and just like you pointed out, a more realistic comparison would be against Sydney, Melbourne, Houston… etc.
However, the concept of “accepting the city as it is†is just silly, it’s pretty much the equivalent of cocooning ourselves in a shell and living in our own little world, ignoring anything that happens in other cities (whether it was Alpha or Beta.)

I hate repeating myself again but I’m going to do it anyways… when it comes to cities, I think the best ethos is to “analyze, juxtapose, and enhanceâ€. The following (I’ve already mentioned this here) are some of projects undertaken by other cities around the world:

· London is enforcing (congestion charges) on some of its ‘downtown’ streets where motorists pay a fine when driving through them. This helps reduce congestion, cut down pollution, and promote the use of public transit, just to name a few advantages. Dozens of cities worldwide are implementing this concept on their streets as it has proved to be extremely successful and efficient in accomplishing its goals.

· New York City is in the middle of transforming its 13,000 cabs into hybrid vehicles by the end of 2012. This will prevent thousands of tons of carbon emissions to be released into the atmosphere. This will significantly reduce pollution and smog, not to mention, noise.

· Copenhagen has the biggest pedestrianized area in the world (i.e. Strøget) right in the centre of its ‘downtown’ where cars are eternally prohibited from entering the area. Doing this helps clean up atmosphere and noise pollution, encourage physical exercises such as walking and cycling, as well as foster a sense of neighbourhood and community among the residents. Melbourne, Australia has implemented that model as well.

However, based on your concept, we don’t have to try and implement any of the examples mentioned above since we’re just accepting Toronto as it is and are not making any comparisons to other cities.


There is a reason why urban planning programs arrange for field trips to cities across North America and Europe. The purpose is to study and analyze other cities, draw inspiration therefrom, implement their successes and avoid their failures.
By the same token, a better and improved version of Toronto could also qualify as a case study for urban planning students from other countries – we could end up teaching them a thing or two about good urban planning practices.

Don't you think?

Each city is unique in it's own way. Each city will develop in it's own way. What's good for one city will not necessarily work in another. Each city has a unique history, a different climate, political makeup and international influence, different people, different attitudes, different culture, and unique levels of affluence.

It's good to study what other cities are doing by all means, but be careful when implementing those programmes. They need to be tailored to meet the needs of the people, and the concerns of the business communities involved also need to be considered.

From the way you wrote it, I am concerned that you think all the decisions should be made by elite urban planners, and other high brow intellectuals with agendas forcing their opinions on us. Environmental extremists are just as dangerous as any extremist.
 
On the other hand, Place Blanche, pretty much the only gaudy place in Paris – and for pretty good reasons – is a 20-minute metro ride away from anything that could be called “central.â€

:confused:

bancherk3.jpg


Place Blanche is in the center at 12 metro minute ride of Saint Lazare. (mainly due at the large interchange station of Place de Clichy)

cimg2793zp8.jpg


At 1 minute of Place de Clichy

cimg5763vw1.jpg


At 6 minute of Barbes

cimg2884hg8.jpg


Due at low interstation metro ride time is not a good indicator, there is a station every 400-500m in Paris metro compared at 1,000m in most other system.
 
How good is Gary Coleman's tennis game gonna get if he is playing Roger Feder all the time?

There is no slouching on the B-list, they are all pretty much World Cities just like Toronto, some even moreso.


but Caltrane, why take the argument to the extreme? Is Toronto really a 'Gary Coleman' in this scenario? Is Chicago? San Francisco? Montreal?

...it is just far too easy for apologists of Toronto mediocrity to play the 'we don't need to be world class' card or the 'we're not NYC' card when anyone dares to say that we should be doing and expecting better.
 
but Caltrane, why take the argument to the extreme? Is Toronto really a 'Gary Coleman' in this scenario? Is Chicago? San Francisco? Montreal?

...it is just far too easy for apologists of Toronto mediocrity to play the 'we don't need to be world class' card or the 'we're not NYC' card when anyone dares to say that we should be doing and expecting better.

OK. I took it to the extreme to make a point.

But yes, comparing Toronto to New York is the same as comparing Hamilton to Toronto. Compare the Media Square in Toronto to similar squares in San Francisco, or Atlanta, or similar sized cites in Europe, Austrailia, South America or Asia. Not the 3 or 4 Mega Cities of the world. We are not there yet.

When New York was building skyscrapers at the beginning of the 20th century, who were they copying? When Paris built the Effiel Tower who were they copying? - Toronto is Toronto. Why do we have to be something we are not? We as we grow will develop even more unique style than we have now. We didn't become a "World City" because of our great building style or urban form. We became a great city of the world because of how the urban form here allowed our people to show their full potential. That's why I personally feel the carping over TLS & Dundas Square is going seriously over the top.
 
Payphones perhaps! But basically you are the only one that touches your own phone, desk and keyboard.
Nope, emacs' list was more accurate. Phones, desks, and keyboards (especially keyboards), have exponentially more bacteria than anything you could find in an average bathroom. It's pretty disgusting :)

edit: here's an interesting/terrifying article.


I'm still glad they have automatic appliances here, but I'd still never use a mall bathroom. I'm sure many of us have a mental map of the best bathrooms in the city (protip: hotels tend to clean their bathrooms more often than others).
 
... comparing Toronto to New York is the same as comparing Hamilton to Toronto. Compare the Media Square in Toronto to similar squares in San Francisco, or Atlanta, or similar sized cites in Europe, Austrailia, South America or Asia. Not the 3 or 4 Mega Cities of the world. We are not there yet.

...but are we comparing merely size here, or are we comparing something else? In other words, if downtown Hamilton manages to successfully rehabilitate Gore Park as a dynamic and beautiful urban core for the city, wouldn't the comparison of this to Dundas Square in Toronto be fair? Not in terms of scale obviously, but in terms of the relative effect or results?

When New York was building skyscrapers at the beginning of the 20th century, who were they copying? When Paris built the Effiel Tower who were they copying? - Toronto is Toronto. Why do we have to be something we are not? We as we grow will develop even more unique style than we have now. We didn't become a "World City" because of our great building style or urban form. We became a great city of the world because of how the urban form here allowed our people to show their full potential. That's why I personally feel the carping over TLS & Dundas Square is going seriously over the top.

...and who was Toronto copying when it built the CN Tower or created man-made islands to build Ontario Place? The spirit of the post-war era in Toronto was far more empowering and far more ambitious than that with which we have become complacent since. This was the generation that built NPS and the TD Centre, and that would go on to build the Eaton Centre and The CN Tower, and that would open its doors and its minds to diversity and urbanity. This is why Toronto has become a great city, which is nothing to do really with 'copying', or with issues of size or scale. And if this means that Toronto seeks to share similar qualities or attributes to those of some other 'greater' cities, or alpha cities as you term them, then isn't that a good thing?
 
Great post Tewder... totally agree.

But you're arguing with one of Toronto's biggest fans/unpaid promoters. I suspect Cal was "accidently" looking for excuses (he loves Toronto at all costs) and you were having "none of it".... ie. a provincial backwater somehow created some truly iconic urban minor miracles/edifices when logically it "shouldn't have happened" (1960's/early '70s).

Now that we are oh so damn hip, diverse, wealthy and unbridled... what have we done (including starchitects) that remotely matches the daring of 40 years past?

Yes? No?
 
But yes, comparing Toronto to New York is the same as comparing Hamilton to Toronto. Compare the Media Square in Toronto to similar squares in San Francisco, or Atlanta, or similar sized cites in Europe, Austrailia, South America or Asia. Not the 3 or 4 Mega Cities of the world. We are not there yet.

Toronto is not even the top of the B-class. Sydney, Barcelona, Chicago, Shang-hai, Hong-Kong, Zurich, etc, come to mind.

Sad

:(
 

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