Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
The most damning part of this building is that it does not allow access to Dundas Station from the north.
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Though the parking garage sort of precluded that, especially with the loading dock facing O’Keefe. This building should be a case study of what not to do.
AoD
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
I am sure some kind of solution could have been thought of.
And that is only a rebuttal for the north-east direction. It doesn't explain why they didn't introduce a connection north of Dundas on Yonge, across the street from Edward.
jje1000
Senior Member
Assuming as movie theatre function remained on site, how about recreating the facade of the Biltmore theatre which was once a part of this block?
[...]
That, and the old Empress hotel and then fill in the balance w/something more modern that fits well.
The old hotel in her glory days:
View attachment 191606
From The Star: https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/..._hotel_firebug_12_years_jail_crown_urges.html
Personally I would much prefer the reconstruction of the Empress Hotel, as it was one of the few stand-out buildings on that stretch of Yonge, and its loss is recent enough to warrant it as a reconstruction.
It's not something out of the blue, as reconstruction does occasionally occur even in North America (i.e. the Scott Block in Gatineau was rebuilt in 2010, after its destruction by fire in the 1990s).
I personally have no desire to see another glass/precast minimalist podium around these parts.
Stefan
Active Member
Could it be cost?
The owners of the property would need to pay an annual tunnel rent to the TTC & the fee may vary depending on the number of entrances?
The owners of the property would need to pay an annual tunnel rent to the TTC & the fee may vary depending on the number of entrances?
Towered
Superstar
Assuming as movie theatre function remained on site, how about recreating the facade of the Biltmore theatre which was once a part of this block?
What a great entrance to a movie theatre.
That, and the old Empress hotel and then fill in the balance w/something more modern that fits well.
(I'm not suggesting recreating the heritage buildings themselves, just their appearance. Hey, we're a City expert at facadism, we might as well own it! LOL)
Image above is from https://torontosavvy.me/tag/biltmore-theatre-toronto/
The old hotel in her glory days:
View attachment 191606
From The Star: https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/..._hotel_firebug_12_years_jail_crown_urges.html
8 years have passed since this beauty was destroyed. Does anyone know what ever came of the negotiations between the land owner and the city?
Northern Light
Superstar
I could certainly get behind that.
Though I do think that any cinema should have a dedicated street-facing entrance. Having the entrance buried inside a mall sucks the street life and excitement away and takes away the sense of event that should arise from attending a film.
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MetroMan
Senior Member
I’m going to take the position that this building is not beyond saving and that its problems reside in a completely incompetent management.
It’s in plain sight. The building has shown that it can be successful in the parts where it is successful.
Try to go have dinner at 10 Dundas East. What you’ll find at Jack Astor’s and Milestones are lineups. Go on a weekend night and you’re waiting close to an hour for a table, if you get one at all. Spring Sushi at lunch? Good luck. Restaurants here are a hit!
The movie theatre is nicely designed as a theatre and is well used. It’s not always jam packed but that’s just the current trend in movie theatres themselves.
This building is an entertainment complex. In fact, you could go as far as to say that it’s a very popular entertainment complex.
Anything beyond that, is a failure. A Winners and a Dollarama don’t fit that profile. A Winners that blocks the very windows that people in the upper floors line up for an hour to get a dinner seat at? That’s complete mismanagement of the building’s potential.
Restaurants not only work with irregular layouts, but this is actually a desirable trait. The maître d’ takes you to your seat and little niches make for nice tables.
What I’d do:
Maximize the revenue potential for the views. That means restaurants overlooking the Square and overlooking Yonge St. North and east spaces along the windowless walls could be used for kitchens, bathrooms and back of house operations.
Move the food court to the basement. It’s well used by Ryerson students but the third floor view is underselling the space as a low cost place to eat.
Kick out Winners. They block their windows with shelving, completely defeating the purpose of the location they’re set up in. Besides, the last thing Yonge Dundas Sq needs is a Winners. It’s always empty when I walk through.
With the second and third floors free, lease all the spaces as restaurants. There is high demand for sit down food in that area. Even higher demand for views of the square while eating. Either multiple restaurants or two big ones per floor would do well here. Have restaurant proposals compete for the space.
Circulation is difficult but only because the down escalator is hidden. Widen the escalator well so that all escalators are within view, even at the cost of some leasable floor. If they really wanted to do something cool that’d become an iconic part of the building, they’d build outside elevators. Tubes running on the outside of the building for direct access to the movie theatres. But maybe they want people exposed to all the businesses on the way up.
When you arrive at 10 Dundas East, you should immediately know and feel as if you have arrived at an entertainment complex. The lobby should be converted back into box offices and a part of the exterior of the building should be dedicated to Now Playing movie posters.
Maybe here:
The marquee they installed above the entrance is often playing ads instead of the now playing movies and times as it should.
A small change that could be effective: the smell of popcorn in the lobby. Scent is a powerful motivator. If I’m 10 Dundas East management, i’d give Cineplex the lobby for free. In a place like Yonge & Dundas with tourists full of disposable time, this is the kind of tenant that drives traffic in the building. Once they’re there for a movie, lunch or dinner is an easy upsell. And no, they’re not going to buy throw pillows and candle holders at Winners.
It’s in plain sight. The building has shown that it can be successful in the parts where it is successful.
Try to go have dinner at 10 Dundas East. What you’ll find at Jack Astor’s and Milestones are lineups. Go on a weekend night and you’re waiting close to an hour for a table, if you get one at all. Spring Sushi at lunch? Good luck. Restaurants here are a hit!
The movie theatre is nicely designed as a theatre and is well used. It’s not always jam packed but that’s just the current trend in movie theatres themselves.
This building is an entertainment complex. In fact, you could go as far as to say that it’s a very popular entertainment complex.
Anything beyond that, is a failure. A Winners and a Dollarama don’t fit that profile. A Winners that blocks the very windows that people in the upper floors line up for an hour to get a dinner seat at? That’s complete mismanagement of the building’s potential.
Restaurants not only work with irregular layouts, but this is actually a desirable trait. The maître d’ takes you to your seat and little niches make for nice tables.
What I’d do:
Maximize the revenue potential for the views. That means restaurants overlooking the Square and overlooking Yonge St. North and east spaces along the windowless walls could be used for kitchens, bathrooms and back of house operations.
Move the food court to the basement. It’s well used by Ryerson students but the third floor view is underselling the space as a low cost place to eat.
Kick out Winners. They block their windows with shelving, completely defeating the purpose of the location they’re set up in. Besides, the last thing Yonge Dundas Sq needs is a Winners. It’s always empty when I walk through.
With the second and third floors free, lease all the spaces as restaurants. There is high demand for sit down food in that area. Even higher demand for views of the square while eating. Either multiple restaurants or two big ones per floor would do well here. Have restaurant proposals compete for the space.
Circulation is difficult but only because the down escalator is hidden. Widen the escalator well so that all escalators are within view, even at the cost of some leasable floor. If they really wanted to do something cool that’d become an iconic part of the building, they’d build outside elevators. Tubes running on the outside of the building for direct access to the movie theatres. But maybe they want people exposed to all the businesses on the way up.
When you arrive at 10 Dundas East, you should immediately know and feel as if you have arrived at an entertainment complex. The lobby should be converted back into box offices and a part of the exterior of the building should be dedicated to Now Playing movie posters.
Maybe here:
The marquee they installed above the entrance is often playing ads instead of the now playing movies and times as it should.
A small change that could be effective: the smell of popcorn in the lobby. Scent is a powerful motivator. If I’m 10 Dundas East management, i’d give Cineplex the lobby for free. In a place like Yonge & Dundas with tourists full of disposable time, this is the kind of tenant that drives traffic in the building. Once they’re there for a movie, lunch or dinner is an easy upsell. And no, they’re not going to buy throw pillows and candle holders at Winners.
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Northern Light
Superstar
I say this with great respect, as I often enjoy your posts............but I think your very offbase on this one.
1) The building is irredeemably trash.
2)If people dine at either Jack Astors or Milestones, they should be subject to punishment at law. They are both terrible and represent poor value for money.
3)The movie theatre under performs because no one wants to go up 3 floors to it; nor is it remotely intuitive that it's there at all, let alone where it is.
4)Success here is a result of geography and in spite of architecture; though I hesitate to use the latter term as I might with a G+C project, lest I unfairly tarnish the profession.
5)There is nothing appealing about the exterior as it stands. Zero, Nada, Squat. Those that appreciate the idea of the endless billboards (I am not one) still take issue w/poor execution and framing. I take issue w/the entire concept.
I'm not prone to hyperbole, usually, but here, I will stray, the original developer and architects should have to forfeit all wealth, all educational credentials and be compelled to retake their High School exams and start over. The education institutions and professional bodies that accredited even one of them should have to formally apologize.
Just sayin.
Richard White
Senior Member
Not only that but the theatre is by no means a destination. It is a theater, a run of the mill theater. I would rather go to Shops at Don Mills, Scotiabank or Varsity over the Yonge and Dundas cinema.
I find the timings are bad because it used by Ryerson and not only that having to climb up 3 floors is a bit of a pain.
drum118
Superstar
As I have said time after time, time to raze the whole block and start fresh.
People have become whips if they can't climb 3 floors if they are health. I have never had an issue getting to the theater from day one.
People have become whips if they can't climb 3 floors if they are health. I have never had an issue getting to the theater from day one.
alklay
Senior Member
You had me at "this building is irredeemable trash"!
Richard White
Senior Member
Not that there is an issue getting to the theatre but it is a looooooooooong journey up there crossing over floors, etc.The building was designed to force you to walk from one side of the building to the other. If you notice how the theater is designed, it has an escalator from the upper level to the far side of the food court, when you go to the subway it lets you down on the far side of the basement and you have to walk.
When you go to the theater there are lots of escalators to change, and when they are not working that is one hell of a walk up.
MetroMan
Senior Member
You’ve ignored everything I said. ??
I offered viable solutions to those complaints.
It doesn’t matter much where the theatres themselves are. The problem is that the beginning of the movie theatre experience is 4 floors up, out of view. That’s why I suggest turning the main, street level lobby into the theatre lobby so it’s right off the street. The sidewalk presence should be of movie posters, making it clear that this is a movie theatre. Cineplex is the anchor tenant but it doesn’t act like one.
What makes this building feel like a mess is that’s it’s a mishmash of cheap uses — a property management failure. I offered a solution to that as well. Consolidate the spaces into restaurants that have their own decor and invest in their own appearances and finishes.
Restaurants are popular here, regardless of your own personal taste. This is above all, a place that caters to tourists. Jack Astor’s and Milestones are representative of that.
The circulation through the building can be fixed by making all the escalators visible. The down escalator is hidden. It’s actually an easy fix: widen the escalator well.
The odd shapes of the layout are actually a desirable trait in restaurants. The building is made for it. As long as the central circulation space is consistent throughout all the floors, and it is, then the layout of the restaurants themselves doesn’t matter.
As for the exterior wall of ads, well that’s what it was built for. I have no issue with it in this part of the city. I too didn’t like the framing of the ads but they’ve finally gone and fixed most of it by removing the clutter of ads on the corner and are replacing it with one large video billboard.
We’ve all seen apparently irredeemable spaces that when reimagined through interior design and finishes become beautiful. 10 Dundas East is a mess but one that can be fixed with better tenant choices and strengthening its identity as an entertainment building.
Midtown Urbanist
Superstar
Metroman is right, the restaurants are performing very well here. The views afforded from 10 Dundas are quite nice for eating and should be emphasized as an attraction.
It doesn't mean this building isn't a hot mess, and shouldn't be torn down and restarted, because it should. But realistically that is decades away, so the short term fixes proposed by Metroman would go a long way in redeeming value from this space in the meantime.
It doesn't mean this building isn't a hot mess, and shouldn't be torn down and restarted, because it should. But realistically that is decades away, so the short term fixes proposed by Metroman would go a long way in redeeming value from this space in the meantime.