[sixrings]

I forgot to mention that I fully support the tolling of highways considering how much we spend on it, repairs, new bridges etc.

That’s quite the omission from your original statement but thanks for clarifying

 

[afransen]

The "just provide transit" argument is also spurious. We can spend hundreds of billions on transit, and it won't solve congestion on its own. Induced demand will just fill up highways with people escaping the GTA to further and further away locations for housing. The only thing regulating induced demand is the cost of driving in time and money. It's almost entirely being managed with time at present. People can only afford to spend so long on the road each day. That is a shocking waste of human life, and for no benefit to anyone else. If we supplanted people paying with their time to paying with money, at least the money can be used for some benefit to the rest of society, and those paying the tolls will get hours of their life back.

 

[gibsonm]

Many of these fees/taxes don't have the 1:1 correspondence between buying what we want and hammering people with additional living expenses that they can't avoid. Paying more will raise your cost of living without providing clear quantifiable improvements unless the money raised is spent specifically on a trackable project.

As a formerly naive person who used to sell ideas like induced demand and tolls, I've made an about face on such ideas because they are used to justify additional charges without producing any clear benefit. (The induced demand argument states that more highways means more traffic rather than less traffic, so don't build any roads or highways, perhaps close some, and congestion will magically disappear.). It means that not only will drivers pay more, they may get even less than what they already had in return, because there's no accountability for the use of those revenues.

For example, in tomorrow's federal budget you will likely see more overspending and borrowing of money, saddling future generations with debt. Any added future tolls or taxes are already spoken for to service the debt on programs that have been created with little justification or consent from the public. Why should I believe that new tolls will add transportation options, whether highways or transit (and I prefer transit), when I already know that all revenue collected won't even pay for existing programs? Call it cynicism, but I only support increases in taxes or fees that are attached to specific improvements and where there is direct accountability that assures that all moneys collected are only spent on those programs. I don't support communist slush funds.

 

[sixrings]

Many of these fees/taxes don't have the 1:1 correspondence between buying what we want and hammering people with additional living expenses that they can't avoid. Paying more will raise your cost of living without providing clear quantifiable improvements unless the money raised is spent specifically on a trackable project.

As a formerly naive person who used to sell ideas like induced demand and tolls, I've made an about face on such ideas because they are used to justify additional charges without producing any clear benefit. (The induced demand argument states that more highways means more traffic rather than less traffic, so don't build any roads or highways, perhaps close some, and congestion will magically disappear.). It means that not only will drivers pay more, they may get even less than what they already had in return, because there's no accountability for the use of those revenues.

For example, in tomorrow's federal budget you will likely see more overspending and borrowing of money, saddling future generations with debt. Any added future tolls or taxes are already spoken for to service the debt on programs that have been created with little justification or consent from the public. Why should I believe that new tolls will add transportation options, whether highways or transit (and I prefer transit), when I already know that all revenue collected won't even pay for existing programs? Call it cynicism, but I only support increases in taxes or fees that are attached to specific improvements and where there is direct accountability that assures that all moneys collected are only spent on those programs. I don't support communist slush funds.

So the problem isn’t tolls. It’s just that you hate taxes. Shouldn’t you move to Alberta then?

 

[gibsonm]

So the problem isn’t tolls. It’s just that you hate taxes. Shouldn’t you move to Alberta then?

I don't care for any of the parties and I'm not particularly conservative or liberal. I don't like mismanagement and lack of vision.

 

[ARG1]

I am not as draconian or as hard-hearted as this may come across, but I react poorly to this kind of rhetoric. Reminds me of what teenagers say when Daddy won't take them to the mall to be with their friends. And frankly, all political stripes use this argument so I'm not being partisan by calling it out. Politicians are too ready to say that people "must have" something as if there is no choice. There is always choice.

There are people who can't afford the loss of disposable income as a matter of survival and there are people who can't afford the loss of disposable income because it affects issues that are very dear to them but that are fundamentally above the threshold of survival.

When we talk about "can't afford tolls", we are largely talking about a suburban population living autocentric lifestyles, for whom tolling would not cost them their homes, or their livelihoods - but might affect their ability to buy a new vehicle, their ability to fund support activities for their children or seniors, perhaps their choice of home (and quite likely pushing them further out into the suburbs to find cheaper real estate, thereby adding to their commute), whether they can take any vacation at all, or how often, very likely causing them to carry more debt and carry it longer, take more time to pay off their mortgage, etc. They will no doubt say this is harsh.

Sorry, none of this is "survival". The people who are at risk are moatly already within the City of Toronto, in low rent housing, and taking transit as their only option.
.
I am sure tolls would also push some people in the burbs below the "survival" level.... but only after they removed many non-survivial items from their budget, and only as collateral damage to a change in auto usage and demand that is transformational for our society and unquestionably in the right direction economically.

Like I said, I'm opening myself to blowback by saying this ... but my point is, making this kind of "can't" argument is extreme and more rhetorical than factual. It's certainly not evidence based. I'm not saying I dispute the impact, or that I don't have sympathy.

- Paul

Nobody is making the "suburbanites can't survive with tolls" argument, they're making the argument that they're being forced to start paying extra for using a mode of transport urbanites deem as "undesirable" without being offered an alternative.

The "just provide transit" argument is also spurious. We can spend hundreds of billions on transit, and it won't solve congestion on its own. Induced demand will just fill up highways with people escaping the GTA to further and further away locations for housing. The only thing regulating induced demand is the cost of driving in time and money. It's almost entirely being managed with time at present. People can only afford to spend so long on the road each day. That is a shocking waste of human life, and for no benefit to anyone else. If we supplanted people paying with their time to paying with money, at least the money can be used for some benefit to the rest of society, and those paying the tolls will get hours of their life back.

New housing can be controlled, old housing is here to stay. Stopping people from flying further and further into deeper suburbs require making harsher housing regulations for where they can be built. If you toll highways, you're not stopping sprawl or demand, its just that the only people that will consume the demand is people with a ton of money that can afford it. At best you're changing the demographic that is moving further away. Look at the United States and please tell me where introducing tolling has ever stopped sprawl. The point of massive GO RER transit expansion is to serve the existing suburban developments that have lived in areas like York for decades, to try and change existing travel patterns. Stopping more sprawl is a separate issue altogether.

You would think this is an auto forum versus a urban forum based on the love of cars and suburban living.

Honestly, just stop. You're not adding anything to the conversation. Taking what someone says and trying to turn it into a punchline isn't productive and isn't the mark of someone who wants to have a proper conversation.

"You would think this is an auto forum versus a urban forum based on the love of cars and suburban living." No to me this looks like a genuine conversation where people with polar opposite stances coming together and having a rational discussion on how to deal with the current highway network and how to change commuting patterns, which is exactly what it should be - this does not look like an echo chamber by any stretch of the imagination. You can be pro transit expansion, pro urbanist design, while also having concerns about introducing tolls for a variety of reasons. If your idea of a healthy forum is an echo chamber where everyone believes in the exact same thing and share the same opinions with the same goal, I'm sorry but I cannot help you.

So the problem isn’t tolls. It’s just that you hate taxes. Shouldn’t you move to Alberta then?

So because someone has an issue with how a specific form of taxation or government income is implemented, that means that person has to move to a location where there are pretty much no taxes at all? This is on the same level as saying if you like Doug Ford's new transit plans that means you're a member of Ford Nation (oh wait you literally made that argument before, right before saying you won't be back on this site until 2022, the first time ). You do know that people can agree with politicians on specific issues without locking themselves to believing in the entire agenda of a specific political ideology right?

 

[crs1026]

Nobody is making the "suburbanites can't survive with tolls" argument, they're making the argument that they're being forced to start paying extra for using a mode of transport urbanites deem as "undesirable" without being offered an alternative.

That’s certainly what I have read in this thread. Anyways, the issue is not about urbanites, nor is it about desirability. I’m not an urbanite, and I love my car(s). The point is, we have run out of room for new roads, the roads we have are full. Especially in the suburbs. The competition for a scarce resource already is happening. An intervention is needed.

Toll me for my use of the roads, and I will figure out which drives are worth paying for, and which are not. I agree that tolls should not just flow into an ever increasing pot of uncontrolled political gravy (and there is such a pot, I will agree). But especially given that tolls create controversy, there will be ample political pressure to encourage government to work out a way to turn the tolls back into transportation spending, and continue to emphasise that transit is the more appropriate and cost-effective solution, especially given the duty to spend tax revenue prudently. Take some cars off the road to reduce congestion and thereby make roads a more valuable, productive resource.

Our roads aren’t going anywhere - but they are no longer an unlimited resource that can be supplied without controls on usage.

- Paul

 

[gibsonm]

That’s certainly what I have read in this thread. Anyways, the issue is not about urbanites, nor is it about desirability. I’m not an urbanite, and I love my car(s). The point is, we have run out of room for new roads, the roads we have are full. Especially in the suburbs. The competition for a scarce resource already is happening. An intervention is needed.

Toll me for my use of the roads, and I will figure out which drives are worth paying for, and which are not. I agree that tolls should not just flow into an ever increasing pot of uncontrolled political gravy (and there is such a pot, I will agree). But especially given that tolls create controversy, there will be ample political pressure to encourage government to work out a way to turn the tolls back into transportation spending, and continue to emphasise that transit is the more appropriate and cost-effective solution, especially given the duty to spend tax revenue prudently. Take some cars off the road to reduce congestion and thereby make roads a more valuable, productive resource.

Our roads aren’t going anywhere - but they are no longer an unlimited resource that can be supplied without controls on usage.

- Paul

Well we're not building many more of them, so we can divert more of our transportation tax for capital spending on transit. We will have to toll mileage soon on EVs, and as these replace most combustion engine vehicles, the gas taxes won't be sufficient to maintain our road and highway network. At that point there will be all sorts of debates around pricing for type of roadway, nature of vehicle (multi-passenger, delivery and commercial vehicles, triple axel, etc.), as well as pricing adjustments for peak periods, and so on. I just hope that by the time that kind of universal tolling takes hold, we actually have a widespread fast, efficient, convenient, and affordable transit system across the region. The proposed subway lines, LRT's, and especially RER (if fully integrated with other transit modes in a distance-based GTHA system), better be up and running. At that point transit becomes a practical option across the region and all we have to do is supplement and tweak,

 

[sixrings]

I don't care for any of the parties and I'm not particularly conservative or liberal. I don't like mismanagement and lack of vision.

Maybe becoming a politician would have been more rewarding than wasting your time complaining on websites how others are not doing their job properly.

 

[sixrings]

That’s certainly what I have read in this thread. Anyways, the issue is not about urbanites, nor is it about desirability. I’m not an urbanite, and I love my car(s). The point is, we have run out of room for new roads, the roads we have are full. Especially in the suburbs. The competition for a scarce resource already is happening. An intervention is needed.

Toll me for my use of the roads, and I will figure out which drives are worth paying for, and which are not. I agree that tolls should not just flow into an ever increasing pot of uncontrolled political gravy (and there is such a pot, I will agree). But especially given that tolls create controversy, there will be ample political pressure to encourage government to work out a way to turn the tolls back into transportation spending, and continue to emphasise that transit is the more appropriate and cost-effective solution, especially given the duty to spend tax revenue prudently. Take some cars off the road to reduce congestion and thereby make roads a more valuable, productive resource.

Our roads aren’t going anywhere - but they are no longer an unlimited resource that can be supplied without controls on usage.

- Paul

I have hopes when we go back to normal and people experience gridlock for the first time in over a year that peoples frustration will boil over and will finally put transit and congestion ahead of their tax bills for the first time in a long time.

 

[gibsonm]

Maybe becoming a politician would have been more rewarding than wasting your time complaining on websites how others are not doing their job properly.

Ha, you say this as you yourself complain on a website. Something about people in glass houses...I've considered politics, but I already see the mob coming with lanterns and pitchforks.

 

[sixrings]

Ha, you say this as you yourself complain on a website. Something about people in glass houses...I've considered politics, but I already see the mob coming with lanterns and pitchforks.

But I’m not complaining about paying taxes. I’m perfectly fine with them. If anything I’m complaining some people want to live in a socialist society while paying next to nothing in taxes. Ontario isn’t exactly Florida or Texas.

It’s not the mob coming. It’s the mainstream lefty liberal media. They’re coming with their cancel culture woke urban transit nonsense.

 

[gibsonm]

But I’m not complaining about paying taxes. I’m perfectly fine with them. If anything I’m complaining some people want to live in a socialist society while paying next to nothing in taxes. Ontario isn’t exactly Florida or Texas.

You're complaining about other things. I don't have a problem with taxes as long as they are freely chosen and pay for for something that only government can provide effectively. I'd consider debt servicing a waste of money, and borrowing excessively to pay for what we can't afford is irresponsible. I accept it in times of crisis, but we were doing this before the pandemic during economic growth and we'll be doing it after the pandemic. Anyway, that's another thread. After all the borrowing, where's the high speed rail and other great infrastructure?

 

[sixrings]

You're complaining about other things. I don't have a problem with taxes as long as they are freely chosen and pay for for something that only government can provide effectively. I'd consider debt servicing a waste of money, and borrowing excessively to pay for what we can't afford is irresponsible. I accept it in times of crisis, but we were doing this before the pandemic during economic growth and we'll be doing it after the pandemic. Anyway, that's another thread. After all the borrowing, where's the high speed rail and other great infrastructure?

I guess my problems can’t be solved by a different job where as you could inspire us to be better with our finances and more accountable while at the same time maintaining congested roads. The only thing that’s going to solve my issues is a good shrink.

 

[Northern Light]

Well we're not building many more of them, so we can divert more of our transportation tax for capital spending on transit.

Except the highways still require operating dollars, routine maintenance dollars and major capital for each segment every 30 years or so.

Because almost all the highway projects (as with transit and hospitals) have been debt-financed on 30-year terms, and gas and other taxes are used to pay the principle and interest each year......

There is no forthcoming reduction from not building more highways.

As the debt comes due, we have to rebuild them.

There's the entire allocation all over again (excepting land acquisition, presumably)