[sixrings]

You can never build parking lots big enough.

I always wanted to see how people exited the new cooksville go station (finished construction during Covid) above ground lot to see the traffic nightmare which must happen. The lot is so huge it’s just like trying to leave a parking lot after a blue jay game. But this is apparently the solution which we have come to think is acceptable. Can’t wait to see

 

[gibsonm]

Those trips are being discouraged now by horrendous traffic. Can you at least acknowledge this?

I'm not sure all that traffic is coming back since the adaptation to working from home, but as mentioned, there are other tools to reduce congestion than tolls.

 

[sixrings]

I'm not sure all that traffic is coming back since the adaptation to working from home, but as mentioned, there are other tools to reduce congestion than tolls.

Just ask for a raise to pay for those tolls. At least that would come with a yes or no answer instead of this circular debate you have us on.

 

[gibsonm]

Nothing circular about it. I don't believe in making people pay twice for things. If you want to replace the gas taxes with tolls on existing highways that's a different conversation. I don't have a problem with tolls on new highways. Take the 6 billion public dollars earmarked for the 413 and spend it on transit.

 

[sixrings]

Nothing circular about it. I don't believe in making people pay twice for things. If you want to replace the gas taxes with tolls on existing highways that's a different conversation. I don't have a problem with tolls on new highways. Take the 6 billion public dollars earmarked for the 413 and spend it on transit.

The gas tax is going to go the way of the dodo eventually because people won’t need gas. And sure I’m ok without the 413. But that was being built to help those working class poor get into the city because they could only afford to live in rural Ontario. I didn’t vote for Ford. I’m not exactly sure if you’re going to be ok with the gas tax disappearing if the tolls equal twice as much. What you really mean is you’re ok with the gas tax going away as long as the tolls are the same price or cheaper than what you’re paying in taxes currently at the pumps.

 

[afransen]

I'm not sure all that traffic is coming back since the adaptation to working from home, but as mentioned, there are other tools to reduce congestion than tolls.

Such as ordering business to change work hours, or spending your tax dollars to bribe them to do so? Is that really a better solution?

If congestion magically doesn't return after the pandemic (file that under wishful thinking--I've seen jammed highways myself during the pandemic), then the tolls will be set low, if they are being set with the objective of managing congestion.

At some point you have to admit you're just rationalizing a desire to not have to pay tolls. As a driver, I get that. But it isn't good for the city.

 

[gibsonm]

The gas tax is going to go the way of the dodo eventually because people won’t need gas. And sure I’m ok without the 413. But that was being built to help those working class poor get into the city because they could only afford to live in rural Ontario. I didn’t vote for Ford. I’m not exactly sure if you’re going to be ok with the gas tax disappearing if the tolls equal twice as much. What you really mean is you’re ok with the gas tax going away as long as the tolls are the same price or cheaper than what you’re paying in taxes currently at the pumps.

Yes pretty much.

 

[ARG1]

That is all fine. But a lot of the traffic is just going between suburb to suburb which there would be no park and ride options because it’s next to impossible to service. I am perfectly happy though with go expanding.

btw if people are only commuting the last mile by car then why exactly would they oppose a toll on highways. Likely they wouldn’t be using them very much by your own examples.

The reason why suburban folk are against tolling is because the alternative does not exist. Most of my post was talking about stuff that GO RER COULD bring, but the thing with COULD is that its in the future and not now. If you're a suburban 905 dweller and you want to travel to Toronto today, your choices are either A) Take a GO train that arrives every hour, and even then some lines like Kitchener don't even operate on weekends. B) Take a bus to the next subway station which either has the problem of A) Low Frequencies or B) Still takes a long time to travel, and finally C) Take the car, which is almost always the fastest option off peak.

The reason suburbanites are hesitant to approval of tolls is a simple "what's in it for us?". "What do we get in return for more tolling". The answer of "this will pay for more transit" doesn't cut it since transit projects like Yonge North have been promised since at least 05 and it still probably won't open until at least 2030, and the projects we do get are BRTs and LRTs with poor service and poor speed, that people don't want to use yet they take lanes away. The only really good transit project over the past several decades that is being delivered at the moment is GO RER and even then progress on that project is absolutely crawling, and it might open a little less than 2 decades after announcement. When this is all suburbanites are getting, ye its kind of not surprising when they react negatively to new tolling because most suburban transit planning decisions do feel like its spearheaded by people that are more interested in making cars less attractive rather than offering genuinely good transit projects, and somehow people are shocked to see them all elect Doug Ford when he runs a campaign on subways, and transit initiatives that actually benefit and properly serve the transportation patterns of people hat live in suburbs instead of another LRT that runs at snails pace and does not get to where people need to go compared to the car.

People say that tolling is a benefit to those who drive because it means less people on the road, but when a proper alternative isn't there, where do those people that are suddenly not on the road go? Citizens aren't sims that can just spawn and despawn whenever the world feels like it, if you introduce tolls and less people are on a highway, ask yourself where those people that would be on the highway went to. Are they now flooding the nearby local streets to save money in which case all you did was move the problem elsewhere. Are they now spending an extra hour a day on their commute because they cannot afford to pay the new tolls in which case congratulations you just made a tolling scheme that only benefits rich people meanwhile the less fortunate people are now boxed into busses and you have further pushed the narrative that busses are for poor people. Great job.

You can never build parking lots big enough.

I always wanted to see how people exited the new cooksville go station (finished construction during Covid) above ground lot to see the traffic nightmare which must happen. The lot is so huge it’s just like trying to leave a parking lot after a blue jay game. But this is apparently the solution which we have come to think is acceptable. Can’t wait to see

You don't need big park and rides, you just need more stations. This is the strategy GO took in the early 2000s and it worked out well. Mt Pleasant was built due to the overcrowding at Brampton. Rutherford was built due to the overcrowding at Maple. East Gwillimbury was built due to the overcrowding at Aurora and Newmarket do I need to go on? We are getting electrified train service, we are no longer going to have trains with horrible acceleration that gets neutered by frequent stops so we can afford having stations every km if we need to, and remember this is a solution to deal with our existing sprawl situation. Eventually we are going to be able to massively upzone and TOD all of the GO train corridor where these parking lots can be replaced with High Density development.

 

[Northern Light]

Nothing circular about it. I don't believe in making people pay twice for things. If you want to replace the gas taxes with tolls on existing highways that's a different conversation. I don't have a problem with tolls on new highways. Take the 6 billion public dollars earmarked for the 413 and spend it on transit.

Swell; but they haven't paid for them once yet.

The highways were largely debt-financed, and money raised through gas tax, and municipal tax only (maybe), barely, covered the carrying cost of capital construction.

It did not cover the cost of on-going maintenance and operation, nor indirect costs.

There's the obvious, the healthcare and policing costs associated with accidents; less obvious the costs in pollution.

But something most are completely oblivious too..........the opportunity cost.

All that land not subject to property tax, not generating a useful economic return.

Very conservatively, the 401, in Toronto alone, occupies 1500 acres of land, including interchanges. I think you can safely assume Toronto's other highways add up to at least that much again.

Granting, that were that land available for development a chunk would go to local roads and parks......

You're still looking at (based on Toronto's average population density), space for 54000 people. (likely a whole lot more the way we build now)

The forgone property tax revenue alone is upwards of 100M per year, on the residential development alone.

Add in commercial, and its a whole lot more.

 

[afransen]

"What do we get in return for more tolling".

Usable highways.

You don't need big park and rides, you just need more stations.

You can't build enough of them, big enough.

 

[sixrings]

The reason why suburban folk are against tolling is because the alternative does not exist. Most of my post was talking about stuff that GO RER COULD bring, but the thing with COULD is that its in the future and not now. If you're a suburban 905 dweller and you want to travel to Toronto today, your choices are either A) Take a GO train that arrives every hour, and even then some lines like Kitchener don't even operate on weekends. B) Take a bus to the next subway station which either has the problem of A) Low Frequencies or B) Still takes a long time to travel, and finally C) Take the car, which is almost always the fastest option off peak.

The reason suburbanites are hesitant to approval of tolls is a simple "what's in it for us?". "What do we get in return for more tolling". The answer of "this will pay for more transit" doesn't cut it since transit projects like Yonge North have been promised since at least 05 and it still probably won't open until at least 2030, and the projects we do get are BRTs and LRTs with poor service and poor speed, that people don't want to use yet they take lanes away. When this is all suburbanites are getting, ye its kind of not surprising when they react negatively to new tolling because most suburban transit planning decisions do feel like its spearheaded by people that are more interested in making cars less attractive rather than offering genuinely good transit projects, and somehow people are shocked to see them all elect Doug Ford when he runs a campaign on subways, and transit initiatives that actually benefit and properly serve the transportation patterns of people hat live in suburbs instead of another LRT that runs at snails pace and does not get to where people need to go compared to the car.

People say that tolling is a benefit to those who drive because it means less people on the road, but when a proper alternative isn't there, where do those people that are suddenly not on the road go? Citizens aren't sims that can just spawn and despawn whenever the world feels like it, if you introduce tolls and less people are on a highway, ask yourself where those people that would be on the highway went to. Are they now flooding the nearby local streets to save money in which case all you did was move the problem elsewhere. Are they now spending an extra hour a day on their commute because they cannot afford to pay the new tolls in which case congratulations you just made a tolling scheme that only benefits rich people meanwhile the less fortunate people are now boxed into busses and you have further pushed the narrative that busses are for poor people. Great job.


You don't need big park and rides, you just need more stations. This is the strategy GO took in the early 2000s and it worked out well. Mt Pleasant was built due to the overcrowding at Brampton. Rutherford was built due to the overcrowding at Maple. East Gwillimbury was built due to the overcrowding at Aurora and Newmarket do I need to go on? We are getting electrified train service, we are no longer going to have trains with horrible acceleration that gets neutered by frequent stops so we can afford having stations every km if we need to, and remember this is a solution to deal with our existing sprawl situation. Eventually we are going to be able to massively upzone and TOD all of the GO train corridor where these parking lots can be replaced with High Density development.

You do realize that even in 2035 after all the go RER is built, The OL is built, The danforth extension is built, the Yonge extension is built, the eglinton west lrt is built that we will still have congestion and we will be building new projects. Transit expansion never ends which means the bills never end. In 2035 you would simply say wait until 2050 and then you can toll the roads when the next set of building is done. Then in 2050 a new set of projects will come up and again you will say wait to toll until then. Eventually you will die without paying tolls but that is exactly what you want isn’t it.

 

[Northern Light]

The reason why suburban folk are against tolling is because the alternative does not exist. Most of my post was talking about stuff that GO RER COULD bring, but the thing with COULD is that its in the future and not now. If you're a suburban 905 dweller and you want to travel to Toronto today, your choices are either A) Take a GO train that arrives every hour, and even then some lines like Kitchener don't even operate on weekends. B) Take a bus to the next subway station which either has the problem of A) Low Frequencies or B) Still takes a long time to travel, and finally C) Take the car, which is almost always the fastest option off peak.

A) Easy to fix and can financed by tolls, I'd be happy to back that the 2 changes (tolling and 2-way, all-day service, of at least 15M frequency be tied and happen in sync )

B) Travel time can also be reduced, both with track improvements/BRTs etc, and less road congestion

C) Shrug. Convenience is an insufficient reason to drive here, there and everywhere.

somehow people are shocked to see them all elect Doug Ford when he runs a campaign on subways, and transit initiatives that actually benefit and properly serve the transportation patterns of people hat live in suburbs instead of another LRT that runs at snails pace and does not get to where people need to go compared to the car.

People were not shocked that some suburbanites voted for Doug Ford (disappointed, yes); but it hasn't got you much, has it? There is no Ontario Line or Relief Line or Yonge North line as yet. Nor even a shovel in the ground.

 

[ARG1]

Usable highways.

Someone didn't read my entire post.

You do realize that even in 2035 after all the go RER is built, The OL is built, The danforth extension is built, the Yonge extension is built, the eglinton west lrt is built that we will still have congestion and we will be building new projects. Transit expansion never ends which means the bills never end. In 2035 you would simply say wait until 2050 and then you can toll the roads when the next set of building is done. Then in 2050 a new set of projects will come up and again you will say wait to toll until then. Eventually you will die without paying tolls but that is exactly what you want isn’t it.

What makes you so sure of that? "Is there a viable alternative" is a yes or no question, there isn't really much of a grey area.. It either exists, or it doesn't. If it exists, great. If it doesn't exist, well get on with it. If it can't exist, then maybe the status quo makes the most sense.

A) Easy to fix and can financed by tolls, I'd be happy to back that the 2 changes (tolling and 2-way, all-day service, of at least 15M frequency be tied and happen in sync )

B) Travel time can also be reduced, both with track improvements/BRTs etc, and less road congestion

C) Shrug. Convenience is an insufficient reason to drive here, there and everywhere.



People were not shocked that some suburbanites voted for Doug Ford (disappointed, yes); but it hasn't got you much, has it? There is no Ontario Line or Relief Line or Yonge North line as yet. Nor even a shovel in the ground.

A) If it happens in sync, great, but let them happen in sync, don't toll first.
B) Then build it, and make it fast and viable. That's all I'm arguing for, give a GOOD alternative, and THEN you can toll the highways. LRTs on every major street aren't a good alternative. BRTs are a good way to build up a riderbase for the real alternative such as an elevated light metro, but that's it.
C) Actually it is a good reason. You might not like it, but welcome to the real world.

 

[sixrings]

Someone didn't read my entire post.


What makes you so sure of that? "Is there a viable alternative" is a yes or no question, there isn't really much of a grey area.. It either exists, or it doesn't. If it exists, great. If it doesn't exist, well get on with. If it can't exist, then maybe the status quo makes the most sense.


A) If it happens in sync, great, but let them happen in sync, don't toll first.
B) Then build it, and make it fast and viable. That's all I'm arguing for, give a GOOD alternative, and THEN you can toll the highways. LRTs on every major street aren't a good alternative. BRTs are a good way to build up a riderbase for the real alternative such as an elevated light metro, but that's it.
C) Actually it is a good reason. You might not like it, but welcome to the real world.

Someone can look it up. But all of the models show the spending we are doing will just keep traffic the way it is currently. If we don’t do anything it’ll simply get worse even if that’s hard to imagine. The reason that it doesn’t get better is because you have to factor in all the new comers to the city, and the fact that although some people will move onto using transit others will fill in the space on the high way that is currently being used by others. Induced demand. Anyways we are trying our best to make transit as best we can. We may differ on where to spend money but there is no doubt I think most people want better transit. Ultimately though is the question of how to pay for it which is how this thread showed up.

 

[Northern Light]

C) Actually it is a good reason. You might not like it, but welcome to the real world.

No, it is not.

I don't.

I already live here.

Your sense of ethics seems to be that whatever suits you, irrespective of the impact on others is fine.

If you can't or won't consider the needs of others in your decisions, then there isn't a useful discussion to be had.