[ProjectEnd]

Interchange42, what you call "investors" in office condo are NOT looking for a "slam-dunk to riches",... the vast majority of them are NOT even looking to rent/lease out their office condo space (as per the 80% empty office condo space at Tridel HullmarkCentre). Their primary objective isn't to make money,... it's to help preserve their wealth.

BTW, I found it interesting that the Design Review Panel noted the office lobby for this development proposal was hidden, not grand enough and undersized,... why would a developer design a grand, highly visible large office lobby and entrance if they expect the vast majority of their office space to be empty???

Huh,... you think I'm trying to warn "investors" off office condos,.... here on urbantoronto.ca,.... dude, this is definitely the wrong demographic! I seriously doubt office condo "investors" would be reading urbantoronto.ca

City Planning fight hard to get any office space development in prime locations like this because it creates employment land in prime transit friendly locations. When development proposal comes in like this trying to minimize office space as much as possible as in "just replace whatever office space is on-site" (from a office building built many decades ago) even though area is now undergoing serious intensification. And once they get development approval, whatever office space they must build they convert to office condos. Sure office condo sell for the developer,... but the vast majority of "investors" that buys the office condos do not intend to rent/lease them out,... thus, the employment area and good office jobs that City Planning was relying on never materializes. This is NOT the way to build a live-able urban centre,.... this is the way to build vertical sleeping communities which is what midtown is fast becoming without a proper balance between office and residential.

Interchange42,... it is NOT just a supposition of mine that DavPart have been monitoring Tridel HullmarkCentre closely,.... I'm not drawing "parallels" and "cherry-picking" details out of my @ss. Interchange42, what do you really know about DavPart???? http://urbantoronto.ca/database/profiles/davpart DavPart is primarily a property management firm that is just getting into development,.. so who will DavPart emulate? A lousy developer like Bazis or a good developer like Tridel? Where is DavPart head-office located? Top floor of 4576 Yonge Street (Suite 700),... basically just north of Highway 401 with perfect view of 4789 Yonge Street - HullmarkCentre about 400m away,... And since the only local transit access for DavPart employees is via Tridel HullmarkCentre's TTC subway entrances; I would even go so far as saying some DavPart employees are at Tridel HullmarkCentre multiple times every single working day! Both are in my hood,... where I always see and hear interesting things,.... Look, DavPart has front row seats to view Tridel HullmarkCentre development, construction and completion,..... even you must admit there are a lot of visual similarities to the completed Tridel HullmarkCentre's North Tower and 1 Eglinton East proposal goes much further than just "of other mixed-use buildings",... add the little public square to the west along Yonge, add in the driveway canopy overhang along the east side and various lip-overhang accent near ground level,... and you'll see how DavPart have borrowed heavily from Tridel HullmarkCentre's North Tower.

There's a whole helluva lot of pseudo science in there but two things jump out at me immediately:

First, Davpart did not start eyeing the redevelopment of 1 Eglinton based on the view from their office or a hunch they had about another company's balance sheet. Over the last few years, they engaged several local architectural firms for feasibility studies which present a number of options for the redevelopment of their existing office holdings. I assume this was strongest performer and is therefore the one they are actively pursuing.

Second, Davpart did not 'borrow heavily' from Hullmark since they didn't design the building. Hariri did and they sure as shit weren't 'borrowing heavily' from Kirkor.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

There's a whole helluva lot of pseudo science in there but two things jump out at me immediately:

First, Davpart did not start eyeing the redevelopment of 1 Eglinton based on the view from their office or a hunch they had about another company's balance sheet. Over the last few years, they engaged several local architectural firms for feasibility studies which present a number of options for the redevelopment of their existing office holdings. I assume this was strongest performer and is therefore the one they are actively pursuing.

Second, Davpart did not 'borrow heavily' from Hullmark since they didn't design the building. Hariri did and they sure as shit weren't 'borrowing heavily' from Kirkor.

This is likely the most profitable design.

It's not like DavPart gave Hariri complete freedom to design whatever they wanted,... there's always criteria and characteristics put in place by the developer.

 

[Big Daddy]

"wannabe designers" ????

• Gordon Stratford, Senior VP and Director of Design, is responsible for the creative vision of HOK’s multi-disciplinary, sustainability-driven Canadian design team.
• Born and educated in Montreal, Michael Leckman studied architecture at the University of Toronto. Upon graduation he joined Diamond and Schmitt and was named principal in 2003.Michael is recognized for providing design leadership on complex institutional projects, shaping a critical debate as Vice Chair of Toronto's Design Review Panel, and contributing to design education as assistant professor, guest critic, lecturer and mentor at University of Waterloo and Ryerson University schools of architecture.
• Carl Blanchaer has served as Design Principal on many of the most important WZMH projects of the past two decades. His recent work has encompassed a broad range of building types, including commercial, hospitality and institutional projects.
• A founding partner of Montgomery Sisam Architects, David Sisam has over 35 years of experience in urban design and architecture. Under his guidance Montgomery Sisam has developed a reputation for design leadership that is supported by over 45 provincial, national and international awards
• Ralph Giannone leads Giannone Petricone Associates Inc. Architects in fulfilling a vision for a diverse practice whose work, no matter what type or scale is infused with exceptional rigor in design details and an extraordinary passion for urbanism.
• Meg is a Principal at superkül, a Toronto-based architecture practice founded in 2002 and recognized as one of Canada’s leading design firms. Superkül’s commitment to design excellence, pragmatism, and sustainability has resulted in numerous architecture and design awards and the publication of the practice’s work locally, nationally and internationally.

Oh.

 

[stjames2queenwest]

1 eglinton looks (according to most recent renders) much nicer than hullmark

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

1 eglinton looks (according to most recent renders) much nicer than hullmark

1 Eglinton East looks like Godzilla took a samari sword and went nuts slashing it! The "slashing" seems to channels more rain water, falling snow and ice towards the corner of Yonge and Eglinton where pedestrian would be standing in the public square waiting for street light.

HullmarkCentre has a Grand-Hall office lobby and large TTC subway entrance,.... whereas 1 Eglinton offers a hole in the wall for each,.... and according to the Design Review Panel, 1 Eglinton is a very poor design that doesn't deserve to see the light of day.

 

[ProjectEnd]

1 Eglinton East looks like Godzilla took a samari sword and went nuts slashing it!

HullmarkCentre has a Grand-Hall office lobby and large TTC subway entrance,.... whereas 1 Eglinton offers a hole in the wall for each,.... and according to the Design Review Panel, 1 Eglinton is a very poor design that doesn't deserve to see the light of day.

You know that's not what they said so why pretend that it is? You've also not addressed anything else in my previous response re:the nonsense pseudo-science of 'development by office view'.

It's interesting that you're all for calling out the conspirators when it fits your narrative but when someone calls you out it's *crickets*.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

You know that's not what they said so why pretend that it is? You've also not addressed anything else in my previous response re:the nonsense pseudo-science of 'development by office view'.

It's interesting that you're all for calling out the conspirators when it fits your narrative but when someone calls you out it's *crickets*.

I already addressed your post in my response post# 197

So you're saying this prime corner site at the Yonge Subway - Eglinton Crosstown interchange should be 7/8th residential condos (8 office storey VS 57 condo storey out of 65 storey total)? How does that help to develop a strong urban centre? When prime location like this gets office space minimized to almost nothing,.... especially via empty office condo; you end up with vertical sleeping community where the vast majority of people have to leave the area for work. That's already a major problem as folks have difficulty getting onto southbound subway train at Eglinton during AM rush,... wait til Eglinton Crosstown is completed.

 

[interchange42]

I do not disagree with anything you have said re: subway crowding. The office space issue is more complicated, however.

Planning is trying to keep employment space where it exists already in the city, to the extent that it's difficult to redevelop existing employment land without providing the same space in the new developments, with many hoops to jump through if you want to build less, and even more hoops of you want to change the type of employment space (eg. industrial to commercial office or retail). The first version of this building had less office space, and more retail. The Planning Department reacted negatively to that, so the new version has less retail and full replacement office space.

For the developer, the main problem at Yonge and Eglinton at the moment is there isn't the demand for office space. Companies tend to want to be Downtown these days because younger hires tend to want to live, work, and play in or close to Downtown. RioCan had a plan to add more storeys atop each of the office towers at the Yonge Eglinton Centre (kitty corner from this site), and have shelved it due to lack of leasing interest. (I still hope it goes ahead some day.)

Across Yonge to its west side south of Eglinton, there are blocks of space that the city wants to rebuild at some point. No doubt those buildings will become taller point towers (as replacements for the slabs there now), and the City wants quite a bit of office space there. The amount of office space that could be offered in the tower that's meant to replace the north end of the old bus terminal could on its own satisfy any expected demand for office space at that intersection, and there is a lot more redevelop-able property south of it that could supply the any other demand that an uptick in the office market for the area could need.

There simply isn't a call at the moment for more than replacement office space at this site, and in fact DavPart was signalling with their first application that they don't even think replacement space is warranted.

So, the ⅞ ratio you keep bringing up Sunnyray, is immaterial. It's simply a consequence, as I said in an earlier post, of replacing what's there now, and then building as much residential as they are allowed to above it, and that just happens to bring about a ⅞ ratio. No one is stewing over that ratio other than yourself.

42

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

I think Y+E will become quite desirable to office space following the completion of the Crosstown. We will lament the loss of office space then.

That is why I am grateful for any effort on part of the Design Review Panel to maintain office space. And that the Eglinton Bus Bays lands are no being redeveloped until the mid-2020s, when the office market might be more favorable.

 

[interchange42]

It's not the DRP pushing to maintain office space. It's the Planning Department. The DRP just want to see a better expressed entrance to the office space in this building.

Like I said, there's lots of space in the southwest quadrant at Yonge and Eglinton for more office space in the future, as there is also on top of the Yonge Eglinton Centre.

42

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

It's not the DRP pushing to maintain office space. It's the Planning Department. The DRP just want to see a better expressed entrance to the office space in this building.

Like I said, there's lots of space in the southwest quadrant at Yonge and Eglinton for more office space in the future, as there is also on top of the Yonge Eglinton Centre.

42

Yeah,... don't worry there's plenty of space nearby for office space in the future. Hmmmm,.... where and when have I heard that before. Yeah, about 20 years ago when the North York Secondary Plan started allowing residential condo building right on Yonge Street whereas prior to that only office building were allowed. Since that time, over 60+ residential condo towers has gone up within the North York Secondary Plan but only 1 full office tower (@ 5000 Yonge and a few token office condo floors that remain 80% empty). Oh well,... at least now it looks like North York Centre won't be the only vertical sleeping community in Toronto,....

 

[taal]

I disagree with the statement that they somehow argued replacement space wasn't warranted; This building is nearly full, it's went through various phases where some medium sized tenants left, and the space got re-leased eventually.

DavPart has no interest in what's best for the city so citing the fact they stated replacement space wasn't warranted should have zero bearing on what we deem the best land use, less than 0 ..

The plenty of space argument doesn't stand up, there is very little space left in the Y&E node less the old bus bay which isn't even that big; Like NYCC it's pretty much surrounded by semis / freehold homes, there's no replacing those ..


I do agree there isn't a strong demand for new office space but I disagree it tenant driven ... there isn't a demand for developers to build new office space ... if it got built magically, I bet they'd find tenants ... here's how it needs to be stated; There isn't a demand from developers and landlords as the cost of the development doesn't justify the rents they could get, you're right most tenants would prefer to be downtown unless the rents are low enough to justify the location, and some honestly prefer the area; St. Clair and Yonge is almost a parallel to Y&E and Y&B ... very low vacancy rates but not a lot of development / landlord centric demand for new construction.

 

[interchange42]

I'm not saying that DavPart's stance that less than replacement office space was what should happen, I'm only reporting their stance.

On the other hand, if developers can't get the rents it would take to justify building new office space here (I do not know enough to know if that's actually the case, BTW), then they're simply not going to build unless forced to in a redevelopment.

In regards to the bus terminal, there's bound to be a tall, large GFA building on that site at some point, and it's not the only spot for a new tower there. The City intends that the Canada Square parking garage to the south be torn down at some point and replaced with new buildings, and they're also interested in at least one of the Canada Square buildings being replaced as well: the whole double-slab thing on the west side of Yonge there is not in the long term plans for the area. They'd rather have more smaller floor plate but taller buildings. Add all that the to proposed added storeys to the Yonge Eglinton Centre itself, and there really is quite a bit potential new office space at Yonge and Eglinton in the future.

42

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I'm not saying that DavPart's stance that less than replacement office space was what should happen, I'm only reporting their stance.

On the other hand, if developers can't get the rents it would take to justify building new office space here (I do not know enough to know if that's actually the case, BTW), then they're simply not going to build unless forced to in a redevelopment.

In regards to the bus terminal, there's bound to be a tall, large GFA building on that site at some point, and it's not the only spot for a new tower there. The City intends that the Canada Square parking garage to the south be torn down at some point and replaced with new buildings, and they're also interested in at least one of the Canada Square buildings being replaced as well: the whole double-slab thing on the west side of Yonge there is not in the long term plans for the area. They'd rather have more smaller floor plate but taller buildings. Add all that the to proposed added storeys to the Yonge Eglinton Centre itself, and there really is quite a bit potential new office space at Yonge and Eglinton in the future.

42

Interchange42, when was the last time a full office tower was built in the Yonge-Eglinton area? Look around the Yonge-Eglinton area, the vast majority of the office buildings look like they were built in the mid-1950s to mid-1970s,... basically the time period when Yonge Subway Line terminus station was Eglinton Station. There might have been 1 or 2 small-office building built in the 1980s?,... but I'm sure there have not been an office building built since,... thus, no new office tower built in the Yonge-Eglinton area in the last 30-40 years.

Canada Square is not owned by the city,... to even suggest that it'll become office building is a far fetch,.... at best one of the Canada Square office tower would be redeveloped with matching office space and condo on top,.... a-la this 1 Eglinton proposal,.... notice, I said matching office space,... not replacement office space,.... sure the developer may match the office space - but partition them into office condo that'll easily sell out,.... but the vast majority of these office condo will never be rent/leased out, they'll be empty! Empty office space do not provide jobs,.... the office space has been matched,... but not replaced by real office space.

As for the Eglinton former TTC bus terminal land becoming office tower,.... yes, the city owns the land and thus has some say on the developer who gets to buy the land and thus the development proposal. But that doesn't mean it'll be office tower,.... look at 4050 Yonge, the current TTC parking lot at northwest corner of Yonge & YorkMills/Wilson - original proposal was for all full size office proposal of TTC head-office,... then that got killed and new developer is now developing something of similar size but it's part hotel - part office condo development,.... office condo will sell for the developer but the vast majority of the office condo will remain empty! At the end of the day, we're getting around 10% of the occupied office space VS the original TTC head-office development.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I disagree with the statement that they somehow argued replacement space wasn't warranted; This building is nearly full, it's went through various phases where some medium sized tenants left, and the space got re-leased eventually.

DavPart has no interest in what's best for the city so citing the fact they stated replacement space wasn't warranted should have zero bearing on what we deem the best land use, less than 0 ..

The plenty of space argument doesn't stand up, there is very little space left in the Y&E node less the old bus bay which isn't even that big; Like NYCC it's pretty much surrounded by semis / freehold homes, there's no replacing those ..


I do agree there isn't a strong demand for new office space but I disagree it tenant driven ... there isn't a demand for developers to build new office space ... if it got built magically, I bet they'd find tenants ... here's how it needs to be stated; There isn't a demand from developers and landlords as the cost of the development doesn't justify the rents they could get, you're right most tenants would prefer to be downtown unless the rents are low enough to justify the location, and some honestly prefer the area; St. Clair and Yonge is almost a parallel to Y&E and Y&B ... very low vacancy rates but not a lot of development / landlord centric demand for new construction.

In North York City Centre area those single residential houses are protected since they are outside of the North York Secondary Plan and usually buffered by the Service Ring Roads of Doris Ave and Beecroft Road. Even then the boundaries of the North York Secondary Plan has constantly shifted further away from Yonge Street,... especially in the Avondale community where Doris Ave does not yet reach. I've seen complete blocks of residential bungalows formerly outside of the North York Secondary Plan completely wiped out by condos and townhouses,.... ie: Menkes Savvy & Cosmo.

The problem with protecting the semis and freehold homes in the Yonge & Eglinton area is the area's Secondary Plans are not well defined and there is no Service Ring Roads to act as well define buffers,..... yet. City Planning has considered putting in Service Ring Roads but thus far it's not very high on their priority for the Yonge & Eglinton area,.... and when I say Service Ring Road, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll be circular or oval and eventually connect to each other,..... the Service Ring Roads in North York Centre area basically just run parallel to each other without direct connection.