isaidso said:
I suppose I should stop looking at Manhattan development threads before coming here. For Toronto, this is a decent office tower proposal but after viewing the Grand Hyatt (83 floors, 502m) proposal in NYC it's impossible to be impressed by 191 Bay. I don't expect the same height/scale as NYC but I do expect similar quality/design standards.

191 Bay is fine but it's no Grand Hyatt.
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This proposal is fine the way it is. If you want too look to the ones you should take real issue is, they would be: Bay-Adelaide Centre, St.Regis Hotel, the Ritz-Carlton tower, and the formerly named RBC Dexia Tower just to name a few.
 
Amare said:
This proposal is fine the way it is. If you want too look to the ones you should take real issue is, they would be: Bay-Adelaide Centre, St.Regis Hotel, the Ritz-Carlton tower, and the formerly named RBC Dexia Tower just to name a few.
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It's all relative. Like I said, 191 Bay is fine but only compared to what we usually build. Improving on Bay-Adelaide Centre and St.Regis Hotel is a step in the right direction but we're not where we need to be yet. That's the key takeaway.
 
ushahid said:
I like Ritz Carlton and the RBC Dexia tower.
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RBC Dexia is about as stripped down basic as one can get. Bay-Adelaide is worse but only by a hair. I think people are so used to mind numbing designs that they get excited over a small design feature thrown in.
 
ushahid said:
T is probably 80-90 years behind NYC in terms of Construction.
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Toronto needs to stop thinking of itself like that. There are 8 million people in Greater Toronto - Hamilton now. That's more than Hong Kong and definitely large enough to take on all comers. If Toronto is to continue its ascension we need to start viewing our city as one of the big global players. Competing means matching (or beating) them in every area we can. We're never going to get there if we keep viewing our city as subordinate or have the mindset that it's good enough because we're only Toronto.

Granted, these things don't happen overnight. I'm confident that Toronto will get there but we need to continually demand and expect more. Let's not forget that we built Toronto-Dominion Centre in the 1960s. Way back then we were building top flight office buildings. We should demand the same today.




 
isaidso said:
Toronto needs to stop thinking of itself like that. There are 8 million people in Greater Toronto - Hamilton now. That's more than Hong Kong and definitely large enough to take on all comers. If Toronto is to continue its ascension we need to start viewing our city as one of the big global players. Competing means matching (or beating) them in every area we can. We're never going to get there if we keep viewing our city as subordinate or have the mindset that it's good enough because we're only Toronto.

Granted, these things don't happen overnight. I'm confident that Toronto will get there but we need to continually demand and expect more. Let's not forget that we built Toronto-Dominion Centre in the 1960s. Way back then we were building top flight office buildings. We should demand the same today.




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Toronto city planners are quite conservative. Once they retire and a new generation takes their place, you will see much bolder designs being approved.
 
ushahid said:
T is probably 80-90 years behind NYC in terms of Construction.
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...err, no we're not. We've got more construction jobs on the go then they do, lol.

Beside we need to stop being jealous of Manhattan. As well as needing an office building to be the next Willis Tower.
 
isaidso said:
Toronto needs to stop thinking of itself like that. There are 8 million people in Greater Toronto - Hamilton now.




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And about 10 million in the golden horseshoe today! If you start thinking like the American combined statistical area stats do. And that not including Buffalo metro area.
 
isaidso said:
Toronto needs to stop thinking of itself like that. There are 8 million people in Greater Toronto - Hamilton now. That's more than Hong Kong and definitely large enough to take on all comers. If Toronto is to continue its ascension we need to start viewing our city as one of the big global players. Competing means matching (or beating) them in every area we can. We're never going to get there if we keep viewing our city as subordinate or have the mindset that it's good enough because we're only Toronto.

Granted, these things don't happen overnight. I'm confident that Toronto will get there but we need to continually demand and expect more. Let's not forget that we built Toronto-Dominion Centre in the 1960s. Way back then we were building top flight office buildings. We should demand the same today.




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We keep viewing ourselves as such, because of things like this.

3 Office buildings are going up, with banks as the major tenants. 160 Front and CIBC square. The buildings are shorter than current office buildings. Now we have another tower going right in the heart of the financial district, and it won't even eclipse what's already there, not to mention it's going be shorter than two residential buildings in the city.

It's not to say that height is everything, but in my mind, I don't see where Toronto will get another opportunity to build something really special as so many other office buildings will already be up, and with all the zoning laws..etc. It was really time for a game changer and I feel like we're missing the opportunity.
 
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Mercenary said:
Toronto city planners are quite conservative. Once they retire and a new generation takes their place, you will see much bolder designs being approved.
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You would hope, but our planning regime is still informed by direction from city council who are at least partially influenced by their NIMBY constituents.

Ambitious city builders may well leave to other municipalities or the private sector before we see real change in prevailing thinking at City Hall.

Also, burnout is a real thing there:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1433028034349740033
 
C-mac said:
We keep viewing ourselves as such, because of things like this.

3 Office buildings are going up, with major banks as the tenants major tenants. 160 Front and CIBC square. The buildings are shorter than current office buildings. Now we have another tower going right in the heart of the financial district, and it won't even eclipse what's already there, not to mention it's going be shorter than two residential buildings in the city.

It's not to say that height is everything, but in my mind, but I don't see where Toronto will get another opportunity to build something really special as all the office buildings that will already be up, and with all the zoning laws..etc. It was really time for a game changer and I feel like we're missing the opportunity.
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AFAIK, as proposed it would be the tallest office building in North America since 1990 outside of Manhattan Island. I believe the current holder of that title is SalesForce Tower in San Francisco with a roof-height of 296 m and an architectural peak of 326m.

Very very few office buildings go above 900 feet and turn a profit anywhere in the world. Heck, that's one of the reasons why China's federal government banned their municipalities from funding them going forward; giant money pits.

We will need something like an Office/Hotel combo to go taller or a Canadian company to want a show-piece.
 
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I am very excited by the prospect of the observation level, and provided a number of other buildings have at least teased this, I would hope this gets implemented. It is reminiscent of London or Hong Kong/Japan for me, and I think they do very fun things with their commercial districts and Toronto should lean in that direction.
 
isaidso said:
Toronto needs to stop thinking of itself like that. There are 8 million people in Greater Toronto - Hamilton now. That's more than Hong Kong and definitely large enough to take on all comers. If Toronto is to continue its ascension we need to start viewing our city as one of the big global players. Competing means matching (or beating) them in every area we can. We're never going to get there if we keep viewing our city as subordinate or have the mindset that it's good enough because we're only Toronto.

Granted, these things don't happen overnight. I'm confident that Toronto will get there but we need to continually demand and expect more. Let's not forget that we built Toronto-Dominion Centre in the 1960s. Way back then we were building top flight office buildings. We should demand the same today.




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Keep in mind that more than 75% of Toronto proper consists of detached SFH - how far do you have to go from Wall Street to find one in NY?
 
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