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It isn't that difficult.

Your "extremely similar" isn't about the authenticity of what we do here. A building somewhere else that's designed by SOM may be "extremely similar" to one here that's designed by KPMB but it isn't an expression of KPMB or our creative community. A painting by another artist may be "extremely similar" to one painted by David Milne but it isn't an expression of David Milne's talent or the creative milieu that he was a part of. You can listen to Dmitri Hvorostovsky sing Onegin, and he sounds "extremely similar" to our Brett Polegato singing Onegin, but he isn't Brett Polegato or a member of our creative community. You can catalogue and pigeonhole and cross-reference all kinds of things that exist and are "extremely similar" to what local designers do, but if they're not products of what we do here it's bogus to claim them as ours or claim that what we do isn't an expression of who we are because something "extremely similar" exists elsewhere. Authenticity and provenance are all.
 
US, as I've said, since you are unwilling or unable to state what characterizes the Toronto style is and makes it distinct from identical currents within the worldwide architectural community, it's not helpful to include circular logic that a Toronto style exists because there are architects operating in Toronto.

You are free, of course, to maintain your own internal definition, but to convince others you would actually have to demonstrate it, not just state it. You've not done this. And frankly, you're not going to, as you've nothing apart from a tautological argument to present.

I admit it's a difficult task, and I remain agnostic about whether it is possible - I only know that to date I have seen nothing that defines a Toronto style with any precision whatever, and I see a great of contrary evidence in the world around me.
 
It isn't that difficult.

Your "extremely similar" isn't about the authenticity of what we do here. A building somewhere else that's designed by SOM may be "extremely similar" to one here that's designed by KPMB but it isn't an expression of KPMB or our creative community. A painting by another artist may be "extremely similar" to one painted by David Milne but it isn't an expression of David Milne's talent or the creative milieu that he was a part of. You can listen to Dmitri Hvorostovsky sing Onegin, and he sounds "extremely similar" to our Brett Polegato singing Onegin, but he isn't Brett Polegato or a member of our creative community. You can catalogue and pigeonhole and cross-reference all kinds of things that exist and are "extremely similar" to what local designers do, but if they're not products of what we do here it's bogus to claim them as ours or claim that what we do isn't an expression of who we are because something "extremely similar" exists elsewhere. Authenticity and provenance are all.

But you are the one "cataloging and pigeonholing" because it is you who sees something which is occurring generally within architecture, as evidenced by the academic building I noted, and the residential tower from Archivist, and claiming that because the creative processes which informed that design were apparently in some way Torontonian, the style itself is also distinctly of our own making. What Archivist and I are arguing is that which you seem unable to describe: that there are buildings here, created by our own architects, through their own creative processes, and there are buildings elsewhere, done by foreign architects, through their own creative processes, and in many cases, the resulting structures look remarkably similar.

This smoke-and-mirrors show about painters and their works does little to buttress your argument beyond hollowly demonstrating that you know a thing or two about painters and their works. Likewise the musical references.
 
US, as I've said, since you are unwilling or unable to state what characterizes the Toronto style is and makes it distinct from identical currents within the worldwide architectural community, it's not helpful to include circular logic that a Toronto style exists because there are architects operating in Toronto.

I have. We're defined by a certain je ne sais quoi that expresses us rather than them. You've proved nothing other than that you don't see it, which is quite different from proving it doesn't exist.
 
I have. We're defined by a certain je ne sais quoi that expresses us rather than them. You've proved nothing other than that you don't see it, which is quite different from proving it doesn't exist.

Urban Shocker, the Fox News of UT. Ever pompous, never informed.

We've provided examples using both words and images to back up our opinions though I assume Archivist, like me, didn't expect you to actually examine them. This war of attrition in which you are engaging really only shows your blind inability to see anything beyond your own opinions. The idea that we've provided 'nothing,' is laughable considering you're the one who defines 'Torontoism' as a 'something indescribable.' Even if it is a je ne sais quoi which differentiates us from them, WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES?

Perhaps a reiteration of Archivist's wise words would be appropriate:

Archivist said:
I admit it's a difficult task, and I remain agnostic about whether it is possible - I only know that to date I have seen nothing that defines a Toronto style with any precision whatever, and I see a great of contrary evidence in the world around me.
 
I'm just offering this up for consideration because I'm not sure to what degree the approach is used elsewhere but my impression of a Toronto style is not so much about any particular 'purist' style so to speak but about a sensitivity which is flourishing right now where older structures, heritage ones etc, are being integrated into newer ones and in many different ways. Consider:

- The ROM with its fanciful 'big hair' crystal addition.

- The National Ballet School where a number of individual heritage structures are joined as a whole through a minimalist meta-structure.

- The AGO reconfiguration which uses substructures from several different eras, integrating them as one around a heritage mansion.

- The Disillery where modern minimalist towers are soaring above industrial heritage buildings in striking contrast.

- The RCM addition which juxtaposes the heritage and the modern.

- The L Tower using a modern heritage building as its podium.

- Pretty much most of low-rise condo development in the King West/Queen West area, blending glassy additions to red-brick industrial bases.

- and all of the above continuing a longer tradition of facadism and heritage integration such as at Brookfield Place.

Pinning a Toronto style to one already established 'global' style seems problematic and may be what causes reticence around these parts when discussing the issue. Toronto is not particularly overly expressive of any one individual style, and this is one of its attributes. We have glorious stand-out examples of all major building styles of course but they do not form an over-reaching aesthetic standard that affirms itself loudly over all others or uniquely over that of other cities.

Instead, Toronto's style is born of a sensitivity that values the stew of influences at play here as much as this same sensitivity values the mixture of ethnic groups and cultures we celebrate. We like our heritage Victorians alongside our international modernism. We like striking point towers aloft low rise streetscapes. We like small-town feel urban villages in the shadow of big-city scrapers. We like the contrast and tension of points of view, the sum of which create something different and something 'other' that is the certain je ne sais quoi we try to define.

This to me is what local designers and architects understand inherently that is not so immediately obvious to others coming here, though I do think even they get it right ultimately. Alsop, Libeskind, Gehry etc. have all adapted their aesthetics and design response to accommodate this sensitivity, including most notably Gehry who better than most 'foreigners' working here understood intimately that his Bilbao approach would not work in the streets of his youth.

The work of Mies and Revell etc. has provided some stunning stand-alone buildings in Toronto that are works of art, but that at heart represent approaches that are fundamentally at odds with the Toronto style - as I am posing it here and as it seems to have been evolving over the last twenty or so years - rather than exemplary of it in any way. No matter how much with love the TD Centre few local designers in this day and age would propose such block-busting intrusions on the urban form. Jane Jacobs reigns, I guess. Still, I don't feel any of this precludes dramatic gestures from time to time as even they should form a part of the city's dynamic mix.

Just a thought, have at it...
 
One of the weaknesses I find in the built form here in Toronto is that buildings tend not to reference or make good use of their context and surroundings. I'm not even advocating for any style or a coherence of styles. What I mean is more like we don't seem able to put a triangular building on a triangular lot. Corner buildings often don't appreciate the fact that they are corner buildings etc. This makes a huge difference. A building regardless of style and regardless of contrast with the existing fabric, that appreciates it's context is a great asset to the street.

Another point is that regardless of the poetic vision of the designer, people, as in human beings, love details and whimsy. There are plenty of interesting details and whimsical sights in this city created by the people who own, occupy and use our buildings, but I don't think the buildings themselves do enough to articulate these concepts themselves. This is not advocating against clean modern lines, but that clean modern lines must be appreciable and concern themselves with detail at the human scale or they will not be loved.
 
Nicely said, Tewder - je ne sais quois and all. You emphasize how we're defined by what we do rather than by PeeEnd and Archivist's lame posting of images from other cities and challenges to define ourselves in the light of what foreigners who aren't us do. Too often we're a city of hand-wringers and deniers, and perhaps there's no better proof that Toronto Style exists than in the denial of it by such types.

And nice that lawsond has had his epiphany at 15,00 feet concerning the fundamentally collective nature of what we do.

And here's part of Alfred Holden's interview with Rodolphe el-Khoury from May 2008:

Why Toronto's got style

Toronto. Style. When describing the greater city's architecture, can the two words be used together?

Architecture professor Rodolphe el-Khoury noticed a particular look, discernible in the Toronto flotsam, when he was recruited from the United States to teach at the University of Toronto in 1999.

Fascinated, partly because locals did not seem to see what he saw, he began to deconstruct and understand it. Now as Canada Research Chair in architecture and urban design at U of T, el-Khoury is probably the most articulate voice for the idea that there is, indeed, a "Toronto style" in architecture.

Its elements, as he explained to Sunday Ideas, come from city and country, the recent and distant past, and several international movements. Notwithstanding the style's seeming invisibility, el-Khoury finds it to be fresh, often very good and popping up everywhere.

Ideas: You've suggested "there is a growing sense of a particular Toronto architecture sensibility." The person on the street is skeptical. What are you talking about?

el-Khoury: If you look at many of the new buildings – libraries, university and other institutional buildings, a surprising number of condominiums going up – I do think they share characteristics. It has to do with several factors. Most of the people who are now in the leading Toronto firms have a very similar education and also training; at one point or another, many worked with George Baird (now U of T architecture dean) or were part of Barton Myers' office (an American who practised in Toronto with Jack Diamond in the 1960s and '70s). So there is a culture that these people were part of, and that they also developed. And that translates into a formal language that you can see in the city.

How you define that formal language can be tricky. It's one of those situations where you don't know – can't really define it – but you know it when you see it. If I were to be very general, it is a particular way, particular manner in the use of materials, for instance a predilection for very tactile materials, for rough stone, textured stone, rich woods and natural materials. What's interesting is the combination of this very rustic palette with a very modern, clean, formal language. So you get the sharp geometry and outlines of modern architecture, but you get the more traditional rustic materials blended with it, and it makes for a very particular flavour.

Ideas: What are some examples of these buildings?

el-Khoury: The new Gardiner Museum; the work under way now at the Royal Conservatory of Music (both by Kuwabara, Payne, McKenna, Blumberg); the work of Brigitte Shim and Howard Sutcliffe. Have you had a chance to see the house they are working on? There's a new one under construction now, their most ambitious project yet, Integral House (for Toronto mathematician James Stewart). It has these qualities I describe, and is a very beautiful house.

Another firm doing the work I'm talking about is Hariri Pontarini. Their McKinsey & Company building (business consultants at 110 Charles St. W.) is a very good example, taking modernist geometry but very ornate materials.

One thing that is significant is that these architects are using the same craftsmen. The cabinetry, all the millwork for the windows, and so on, come from the same sources. All these architects are capitalizing on the same resources, which are available in the local craft community. This is another way you get a sense of common language or sensibility, because it's using the same – it's built on the same community.

Ideas: I'm thinking of that grey Owen Sound ledgerock with the beautiful patterns in it that you see around town, sometimes rough, sometimes very polished.

el-Khoury: That's right. And here's another argument to be made:

Toronto's culture has a rural foundation to it. Montreal's contemporary architecture has more cosmopolitan cultural aspirations and therefore tends to be much more strictly modern, whereas Toronto has this more nostalgic relationship to the land. You get the wood, fieldstone – there's always a reference to a rural past, to the idea of Canada as a rural land.

If you compare the high-end architecture in Montreal with the high-end architecture in Toronto, it's very different. You won't find that commitment to traditional materials in Montreal. That's the Toronto style; it's a modern architecture, it's contemporary, it's plugged into contemporary architectural trends and debates. But there's always a way to translate or recover Ontario heritage, which is a rural, rooted, land-based culture.

Ideas: When I talk about a Toronto style, people sometimes laugh, as if banality is the best we can aspire to. What is giving rise to these buildings? Who is commissioning them?

el-Khoury: The style of the Toronto school we are discussing is really a kind of high-end phenomenon. I'm talking about institutional and business buildings, and a very few houses. And it's a relatively recent phenomenon, so it's going to take awhile to enter the mainstream. Clearly what we're discussing is not evident in your average architectural project. But it is there in the high-end, high-profile projects. Those are the ones that tend to represent a city before the style or trend becomes a mainstream phenomenon. It will take a few years.

Ideas: Did the neighbourhood movements of the 1960s and 1970s, and the embrace by Toronto of Jane Jacobs' philosophy after she moved here, influence the distinct style you see?

el-Khoury: Jane Jacobs was one of the main inspirations behind the reinvestment in a user-oriented architecture, a more human scale, the finer, softer touches that define the gentler, kinder modernism of the "Toronto style." The work of Barton Myers and Jack Diamond in the 1970s is the earliest manifestation of the Toronto manner or style, and it is very much about a generosity toward the street, a sensitivity toward the neighbourhood, ideas and attitudes that echo Jacobs' critique of the cold instrumental rationality of modern urban planning.

Ideas: Where does the city's interest in star architects fit in?

el-Khoury: The (Crystal) addition to the Royal Ontario Museum was, I think, unjustly negatively received by the critical press, and actually by most people. I think it was because the building goes against the grain, against those tendencies that are reflected in the city's more traditional building stock. It's because it's so different from those, and it did not embody them.

Ideas: The Crystal doesn't speak to our rural roots?

el-Khoury: Exactly. If you go back to (architectural) reviews, they say that, in a certain way. For instance, the ROM seemed like a building not rooted – kind of a floating thing that has collided into the old structure. It doesn't touch the ground, so to speak. One critic commented on (Daniel) Libeskind, the architect, in terms that faulted his cosmopolitanism – he was an outsider who comes to Toronto and doesn't understand the local culture. Again, it's a kind of tension between a cosmopolitan international culture and a more Ontario-based kind of heritage.

Ideas: So there is this very real force here, a kind of thinking that we may not be conscious of but is very powerful.

el-Khoury: The ROM may be a good example of how people are not aware of this culture, but when something strikes a very different chord, we know it is off.

Ideas: You have said that the Toronto style is most evident to visitors, or "outsiders" like yourself. How did you come to the city and what did you see?

el-Khoury: Originally I was born in Lebanon, but my architectural education and practice is mostly American, (so) I brought mostly an American perspective to Toronto. My expectations about North-American cities were pleasantly challenged by the unusual character of Toronto. I liken Toronto's charm to the pleasure we get from wearing an old favourite shoe: not very pretty but so comfortable.

Ideas: When did you start to notice our style?

el-Khoury: I was recruited by the University of Toronto in 1999. Immediately, after my first few months here, I had the idea of doing an exhibition on this Toronto school – it wasn't called a style, but at least a school of thought. A vocabulary shared by all these architects. And I met with them and started to build this body of work.

We have yet to do the exhibition. One reason, perhaps, is my reservation about formally codifying and fixing that which is rather nebulous and fluid: a sensibility and a set a values shared by a community of architects rather than a style in the strict sense of the term. That's why the Toronto style, or manner, as I also like to call it, is hard to pin down. Maybe that's a good thing, and that's how we should leave it. It's the je ne sais quoi that gives Toronto architecture such a distinct character.
 
Great posting. Yes, it sometimes takes an 'outsider'!

The Toronto style is in the best that we do, not the worst. I differ a little on his assessment of the ROM though. All the 'roots' (heritage at times, rural/geographic at times) that he speaks of as being an integral element to what we do in Toronto are present in the overall scheme by way of the original museum buildings. A fundamental feature of Libeskind's design is in the contrast with those roots rather than in the ignoring of them. My sense is that some people are uncomfortable with this not because it eschews a prevailing design language but because it pushes it to the limits of spectacle.
 
US, if you'd actually read my posts, then I've said more than once that I'm agnostic about a Toronto style. Willing, almost eager to believe, but I await an appropriate description that would allow me to actually find the idea useful. Yes, I read that article too, and it really doesn't say much more than you do, the Toronto style is something that exists but cannot be defined. Therefore, in terms of strengthening my understanding of the city or our architecture, it is for all intents and purposes useless. It is useless in saying anything intelligible about our style in comparison with other cities, and it is useless in comparing one building within the city to another.

You and I both know that if we were to get into the nitty-gritties of which buildings are exemplars of the style, it would quickly lead to chaos and disagreements, with nothing to fall back on, other than "I know it is", "I know it isn't". From our previous foray, it became clear to me that for you the Toronto style is what you like, nothing more and nothing less, and that particular point of view has already been expressed adequately on this forum, in my opinion. Further exploration in the guise of talking about the Toronto Style interests me not one whit.

I have a great deal more sympathy for Tewder's post, which at least identifies particular qualities of what might define the style, and suggests some instances of it. In fact, what Tewder is doing is what I encourage, which is a discussion of the style and what it might mean for us, rather than the bland assertion of "I know it when I see it". I have spent time thinking about Tewder's post, and I think certainly he is on to something, many of our more successful projects recently have skillfully blended the old and the new. A further addition might be the Toy Factory Lofts, honourably mentioned in the TUDAs recently. How, though, would you eliminate those that have tried and failed, like, say, King's Court? What about something middling, like Burka's King George Square, which strikes me as neither an especially good nor an especially bad attempt to bring

What I would ask Tewder is how or whether he would also include completely new structures such as 18 Yorkville or Spire in the discussion?

Finally, one other question about the integrationist definition of the Toronto Style - where does it leave projects before this decade? I don't believe there are too many good examples of this kind of integration before, say 2000. (I wonder if you would include the St. Lawrence Market as an early example, but I digress). Is the implication that the Toronto Style has arisen only recently? It's a big change from understanding the Toronto Style as a particular distillation of modernism.
 
The Toronto Style

I apologize if I'm succumbing to an Al Gore "I invented the internet" sort of self-adulation, but IIRC, the first mention of the "Toronto style" was in a post of mine about seven years ago on the old EZBoard forum when it was known as the "Toronto Skyscraper Forum" and I was known as "Alchemist".

I described a "Toronto style" building as a modernist mid-rise with a distinctive "two-box" design: a podium of between 3 and 7 stories with a typically red-brick facade and French windows, and a glass curtain box of similar height but lesser footprint perched on top of it. The brilliance of this design, I thought, was that it contextually grounded the lower half of the building with the surrounding vernacular, which often meant turn-of-the-century warehouses or commercial blocks that were roughly 4 storeys in height. The upper floors added a certain big city verticality that was conspicuously lacking in Toronto's mid-rise structures but, being glass curtains set back from the podium, were still deferential to the historic buildings below them. At the time (circa 2002), there seemed to be a large number of these mid-rise buildings either planned or under construction, notably: The Charlotte, Ideal Lofts, Home and MoZo.

Now, two things happened to effectively render the "Toronto Style" an abstraction rather than something definite or iconic. One, the main practitioners of this form, Peter Clewes and CORE architects, moved on to other designs. Secondly - and this was due to my ignorance - the "Toronto style" was not peculiar to Toronto at all. It was a common way of building residential infill across North America during the early part of the 2000s boom. In particular, Denver has just as much a claim to this form of mid-rise as Toronto does.

If I would have been more informed about architecture back then, I probably would not have had the audacity to start a thread claiming that there was an emerging "Toronto style". I guess I was a bit hometown proud and not very sophisticated back then and I never knew that it would become a boundary object; a rather plastic term to rally around (recently I saw that the thread about Lumiere was tied to a discussion about the "Toronto style" even though, as a highrise, Lumiere is, by the original definition, not a "Toronto style" building).
 
The big Toronto firms should get together and create the style. It would be a way to spur future pride and investment in architecture in Toronto. That is, in the future people could look to a unique group of buildings in Toronto and be inspired to develop their own style and evolve architecture with a higher level of personal identification with the buildings and hence investment.

Plus it would be great to see cheap imitations in other cities called "The Toronto" or something like that.
 
Hipster - interesting. I was around then, but I don't remember your post. Certainly, the concept has filtered outward into the press etc., though usually only loosely defined. I find it interesting that your own definition (which you admit is likely problematic on further development and reflection) eliminates highrises and emphasises a contextual base. Tewder's also emphasizes a contextual element in the incorporation or relation to existing heritage buildings, but his also certainly includes highrises. These don't seem to be that far from each other at all to me. Definite possibilities.

Questions: What about Bay-Adelaide? What about Jazz (honourable mention in the TUDA awards, so some recognition of worth there).

One of my questions about the style is whether the local community of architects has enough influence on each other for this to show in their buildings? It's not self-evident to me that this should be so, especially given the abundance of international projects in the city and the large number of projects outside our city that our firms participate in. Terrence Donnelly, for instance, exhibits many of the characteristics of what we are so far calling the Toronto style, but it's a partnership between Aa and Behnisch & Behnisch. Aa has also worked with Omicron Consulting Group of Vancouver. Diamond and Schmitt have partnered with many international firms, including those in Jerusalem, Prague, Kingston, Montreal, and Santa Fe, among others. Given these strong linkages between international firms, how can we determine if, for instance, D&S + Aa have more influence on each other because they have a large body of work in the city, and that that influence is greater than that from their international partnerships? Have D&S and Aa worked together on a project? I don't believe so - but that also doesn't mean they aren't picking up on each other's cues, either.

My reservations about a "Toronto style" arise from simple observance that international influences in architecture appear to me to be much stronger and self-evident than regional or local influences. But I'm willing to hear out other arguments.
 
Apropos of nothing, I have never seen a building called Toronto anywhere. But here are two "Canada" buildings, a fairly dire one in Mexico, and a building I quite liked in Curitiba.

City048.jpg


Curitiba015.jpg


Curitiba016.jpg


Curitiba017.jpg
 
Just flew in from Boston on Porter and not only are my arms tired - ba dum - but I got THE most spectacular view of the whole Toronto "project" now underway.
And after years of fuming about how unimaginative and dull all those boxes are, I noticed from a whole new and interesting perspective, a real coherence to the skyline and some sort of modernist lightness of being about the whole damned thing.
So I guess I had an epiphany of sorts and now must take a nap.

Though speaking of Boston, I was reflecting on this post, and thinking of how, even if it comes natural to Bostonians, there's something strangely simplistic about that way of "viewing" architecture from a Torontonian standpoint. Like, if there's an inherent and underexplored "Toronto style", it may be less in our way of building anew, than in our way of adapting to and discussing and creatively beholding that which already exists.

For instance, as I see it, if Boston were like Toronto, Boston City Hall's rep wouldn't have slid to this level of universal mob-rule loathing with a few pointy-headed academics, architects, and Docomomo-fringe masochists as the mere pathetic exception. Instead, it'd be "adapted to" over time, and even rediscovered, embraced and celebrated by younger generations, by a Bostonian version of a certain Spacing or Concrete Toronto spirit appreciative of the bold form and 60s optimism. And the "mere pathetic exception" wouldn't seem so mere, so pathetic, so marginalized...they'd seem rather, well, sagely.

It's not that the more general too-otherwise-preoccupied-to-be-"informed" public would have shared such love. But at worst, BCH's rep might have been more Robarts-like, I suspect: lovably "loathesome".

If Boston were like Toronto, 2008 would have seen disarmingly enlightening 40th anniversary celebrations, exhibitions, and public symposia on Boston City Hall. Instead, there was...nothing. I tried Googling up variations on "Boston City Hall" and "40th anniversary", and from a casual-enough observation there was...zilch.

That's sad. And shocking, in an academically-tinged metropolis that once helped midwife (through Gropius et al at the Harvard GSD, and beyond) International Modernism in North America. From a Torontonian urban-dialogue/discussion standpoint, that's tank-town level.

With that under consideration: maybe we, in Toronto, have it made, more than we realize. And it must perplex outsiders that the adopted home of Jane Jacobs is too nuanced and paradoxical and lively in its urban self-reflection to simply follow paint-by-numbers William H. Whyte formulae or Kunstlerian agitprop...it's like we say yes, thank you, and go our own way. We're so infused with Jane Jacobs compatibility, we know how to fold it against itself. And create some pretty fascinating urban origami sculptures, ever-changing under the evolving urban light.
 

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