[kool maudit]

i guess this is kind of one for the older forumers, but having just been to toronto, one of the things that i grew curious about was what the city felt like when montreal was still the first city of canada.

toronto is now so much busier, so much more ambitious than my hometown that it's difficult to see. i know the wheels were in motion since the '30s -- manufacturing, u.s. branch plants, the stock exchange -- but until the 1970s montreal was still canada's metropolis.

they were so close for so long that there is little direct evidence that remains. it's the little things: the humble houses on palmerston above queen, the slight lack of ornate, joined walkups... but toronto is now infilling so rapidly and building so grandly that its pre-eminent status seems like it was always the case.

though i prefer montreal -- any anglophone who works in the media here is here for this personal reason, as toronto offers more opportunity -- i do love toronto, and that's why i joined this forum. i could easily live there, given the right job. i'm no blinded booster.

if anything, i could see how toronto may have once had a sparseness, a shabbiness that montreal did not (but we're still both plenty sparse and shabby, by world standards), but i doubt it ever lacked much in confidence.

i wonder, though, how montreal appeared to torontonians in those years -- was it something to aspire to, or a dead-end to avoid? was it a sibling?

the two are so alike and yet so different, and driving home on the 401 it is the tenements of saint henri that first drive this home, that first appear unshared.

what was it like in those days before the poles flipped?

 

[TO City of Light]

Toronto as #????

Interesting perspective. As someone who grew up in Toronto and lived there full time until 1972 I can offer a few comments albeit from a student's and teenager's perspective.

Montreal was certainly the "fun" capital of Canada at the time and a weekend there was a real eye opener for any Torontonian, as was EXPO 67. Remember, this was a time that Torontonians would travel to Buffalo for a good time.

But Toronto never felt second rate by Canadian standards, or even globally. It was in the early 50s that the dollar volume of shares traded on the TSE first surpassed the dollar volume on the Montreal exchange. While separatism didn't help the situation of business in Mtl, it really only exacerbated a trend that was already showing.

Toronto had Canada's first subway. The Commerce tower was the tallest building in the Commonwealth. CNE was the largest annual fair. UofT was highly ranked and science/engineering graduates went on to do top work in the US and UK. Toronto was where all the immigrants and working abroad professionals came - the area around Yonge and Eglinton was loaded with Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and assorted others.

With the ROM, AGO Royal Alex, Okeefe Centre, etc there was a cultural/financial elite in Toronto that cared about the city. One was aware that the Montreal elite - largely English at the time, did not seem to put as much into public facilities in that city.

Canada in the 60s still had that aura of major player left over from the Second World War. I travelled around Europe as a student hitch-hiker in 1966. While it was a lot of fun, it was only in Switzerland that I felt there was something that materially matched Toronto.

By the 70s, living in London, coming back to Canada was definitely a step down in terms of urban living but Toronto still felt a step up from the Asian countries and even Australia.

By the 90s the modern Asian cities were a step up from Toronto although not from Europe.

Today, traveling from Asia to Europe is a step down in quality of life. Europe to anywhere in North America except NYC is anther step down.

In short, one never felt second rate about Toronto when Montreal was on top. Now, both seem somewhat second rate.

Today speaking with people in Asia and Europe, the two most interesting cities for them seem to be Montreal and Vancouver. This applies to many who have spent considerable periods of time in Canada/Toronto.

Not very cheery, I realize, but a personal perspective.

 

[drone]

I lived in Montreal for 28 years, and been in T.O. for the last 10 years. I can't say I like either city. Montreal is limiting in my experience. Many companies, new immigrants whom have little ability to function in french won't start out there. Montreal may seem trendy, but, it's somewhat isolated in other ways, because of language laws. There is less oppurtunity.

Toronto works..if that makes sense. It's characterless to a certain degree. When I first arrived here, I was shocked at the lack of old churches (montreal has so many beautiful old churches). The architecture, to me, seems bland. However, the economy is better here, traffic is less gridlocked. Way more oppurtunities, business' etc... it's even easier to park here!!

It's also way more multi-cultural here in Toronto

It seems that Toronto moves at the pace of an big american city. Montreal seems slower, less corporate.

oh, and the strip clubs are terrible here in T.O.

 

[Dan416]

I've always lived in Toronto (and likely always will) but Montreal is still very much regarded as the "fun" city of Canada, the "clubbing capital" (for gays anyway). I love visiting Montreal and I always find myself going back. I'm not sure if Montrealers feel the same way about Toronto, but I think Torontonians in general love Montreal and see it as a "sibling" rather than a downtrodden "second city".

As for Vancouver, sometimes people mention it, and I've heard mostly that it's "beautiful" but "boring". I'd like to go there to see it, but it's not exactly anywhere near the top of my list of places to visit. New York City and Chicago are next on my list (having already been to Montreal many times, and finally visited Boston this October).

 

[urbanboom]

drone, you spent 38 years in two cities you don't like? Why?

 

[Archivist]

boom's is a good question. I live in Toronto because I chose to live here, and I quite love it. I've always wondered why someone would waste their life in a place they don't like. I grew up in Ottawa, which I still enjoy visiting and have warm memories of, but did not see myself staying there. I really thought Vancouver, until I went to school there and discovered that it wasn't for me. (I sometimes envy Americans their wider range of large cities and different climates).

Certainly, from an Ottawa perspective, saying that you prefer to live in Toronto rather than Montreal is akin to saying you kill babies for a hobby. The warnings I had on departing for Toronto in 1990! Ottawa, especially gay Ottawa, is very firmly entrenched in a kind of self-loathing mixed with an envious glance up the 417. Lord knows it wansn't that uncommon for a supper on Elgin Street to mutate into a quick drive followed by a night out at KOX or walking around the St Marc with a towel around your waist, and thank goodness for that. But Ottawans are so firmly ensconced in the admiration of all things Montrealaise and so sure that Toronto is boring that it can be funny sometimes. They're like Montrealers a long time ago - I find most Montrealers have gotten over that now.

As for maudit's originaly question, I do recall that in the eighties the two cities seemed more or less the same in size and aspiration, and it was with a shock of recognition on one visit to Montreal when I thought "it really is noticeably smaller than Toronto". Not better, not worse, surely a city all it's own, with nothing to prove. But smaller.

 

[TonyV]

Cute post. Forgive my tome, but I feel I can add something.

Things were once very different, but immigration has woken Toronto up.

I was born here, mother Torontonian, father from Eastern Townships, Quebec. I guess my first fully formed growing-up memories are from the mid sixties. In childhood then, I heard my Quebec relatives deriding Toronto as "barely toilet trained" while Montreal went crazy with Expo '67. I had a Montrealer uncle (now deceased) who eyed Toronto as a home while the FLQ messed things up Quebec-side; he proclaimed "the day Toronto becomes a cultural capital, the world will come to an end". (Well, Toronto has become a cultural capital, what's next? My uncle wasn't always right).

Fast forwarding more than 40 years, I have witnessed the steady decline of Montreal's influence (although I do agree with the rest of you that it's still a great, if somewhat provincial, city) while Toronto's global profile is steadily on the rise due to its multicultural makeup. This is a fast changing world that is very hard to predict, but I think that the changes over the last ten years in Toronto will position it for an even more significant role in the world -- Toronto has taken over as the "it" spot in Canada, culturally and economically. No one is more surprised than me, about this development. At middle-age, I can recall some times when I've been just too amazed with Toronto's unwilling bride attitude, and that characteristic seems to be fading away as we look forward. This change of attitude is in no way attributable to the local tribe of politicians, who are as yellow-bellied as ever -- the change is brought on by the myriads of people who have settled here over the past 40 years, who have turned Toronto into a real force.

There is a strong possibility that someday Toronto will be referred to as one of the world's great societies. And while the two cities are hugely alike in many ways, there is a significant difference: Torontonians don't like to hear themselves complimented (we still blush) while Montrealers just fall all over themselves with praise.

When I am asked "what can Toronto offer the world?" I can respond, "an example of how to get along". "Diversity, Our Strength". I believe I remember a trace of terrorism in Montreal. Maybe my view of history is too short, but I believe that was a turning point. I remember my allophone relatives in Quebec just shaking in their boots during the violent times, it was very real for me.

I credit immigration (Quebecer Trudeau's legacy) for waking up Toronto. Others in this form love to bash Trudeau ... I say a huge "merci" to him.

 

[ladyscraper]

Montreal must still have a solid reputation and still thought of as the big city of Canada by many people. My wife is from New York City and she lives here in Toronto now. We went on a trip to Montreal and she seemed shocked by what she saw there.
Her exact quote was "the way people in New York described Montreal, I expected this city to be much larger. It seems like a small town compared to Toronto"
I found that interesting that people in such a huge city like New York gave her the impression that Montreal would be a very large city. Maybe she mistook them saying it's a fun city with the size and importance of it.

Anyways, I asked my Dad if Toronto seems different now compared to when he grew up. He said that back in the 60s-70s, he never viewed Toronto is powerful or important but nowadays it seems painfully obvious that it is. I wish I could go back in time to see that!

 

[Urban Shocker]

As an "average 14 year old", living in England in 1967, my concept of what Montreal was all about was based entirely on seeing Expo 67 on TV - it came across as a bright, modern, trendy place with a spirit that matched Swinging London. That's what Worlds Fair architecture can do for a place, I guess.

Imagine my surprise, when we immigrated to Toronto in 1970 and took a trip to Montreal, to find much of the downtown to be a rather old world city in form. Toronto, however, fit the bill of a squeaky clean and "with it" modern city full of new buildings, suburbs that stretched forever, new highways and a place fuelled by optimism about the future. Within a few months of arriving, I watched the FLQ Crisis unfolding on TV, and gained the impression that Montreal represented an old Canada of English/French rivalries that weren't what Toronto was about.

So, to answer kool maudit's question - no Montreal didn't seem like a place to aspire to. It was fun to visit, and I did so in the mid-'70s when art school friends lived there during the summer months, but I didn't see any practical reason to move there.

 

[WillC]

...i wonder, though, how montreal appeared to torontonians in those years -- was it something to aspire to, or a dead-end to avoid? was it a sibling?

the two are so alike and yet so different, and driving home on the 401 it is the tenements of saint henri that first drive this home, that first appear unshared.

what was it like in those days before the poles flipped?

Since I was born in Toronto in the 40's, I grew up seeing Montreal as the big city. I imagined that I would move there when I became an adult, and live what I thought was a sophisticated life style. I never envisioned learning French to do so. At that time, it wasn't an issue. We saw Montreal as a city in which could function solely in English.

When I was a particularly naive 14, I finally visited there, and got into Pal's Strip Club on Ste Catherine St, near, St. Laurent, though the legal drinking age was 21. It seemed to my tiny teenage mind like the height of high living. When I walked along Rue Pine the next day, I felt like I should finish my education, and come here for this was where the opportunity was. The Place Ville Marie, and so many other buildings, didn't have an equivalent in Toronto.

The founding of the Rassemblement pour l'indépendance nationale in 1960, made my enthusiasm for Montreal wane. Here in Toronto during that period, most of the progressive people were involved in the peace movement, or the civel rights issue in the US, but in Quebec, the language issue dominated. Most of the people I knew, Anglophones, weren't involved in this issue, Montreal lost its glitter among unilingual Torontonians.

I don't think that bothered the people of Montreal that much.

 

[Irishmonk]

I was too young to remember Montreal in it's heyday in the 60s (apparently I did attend Expo but I was 3 and have no memory of it whatsoever.) but was old enough to experience and remember the dynamics of the 70s when the Toronto/Montreal rivalry began to shift. My first real visit to Montreal was in 1976, just prior to the Olympics. At that time it seemed very exciting, international and sophisticated and gave me my first real taste of Montreal envy. Returning to Toronto, it really did feel to me like the nation's 2nd city. (This was further exacerbated by Montreal being in the spotlight during the Olympics--though the attention wasn't all flattering).

But despite Montreal's spotlight hogging that summer, 1976 was the year things shifted inexorably into Toronto's favour. That year saw some high profile magazine coverage of Toronto's emergence (Time, Fortune and National Geographic being a few.) the PQ take power in Quebec, and the beginning of the corporate exodus to Toronto and other points west.

Also around that time a number of landmarks opened in Toronto, including the Eaton Centre, FCP, Royal Bank Plaza and the Metro Library; Toronto suddenly had a respectable, moderately flashy downtown that could compete with Montreal's. The Spadina subway also gave Toronto it's first architecturally significant subway stations that were somewhat in the style of Montreal's acclaimed Metro.

The passage of Bill 101 (sometime in 1977 or 78) made Toronto the de-facto city of choice for immigrants rather than Montreal. Montreal's growth slowed to crawl from that point on while Toronto's chugged along at roughly 100 thousand people per year without fail until the present day.

When (greater) Toronto's population finally edged past Montreal's sometime in 1978 it did feel like a major occurrence and I was personally kind of thrilled. (Finally we could beat Montreal at something: maybe not hockey or fashion sense--but census statistics! Yay!) It still took a few more years for international publications to stop referring to Montreal as Canada's largest city but it didn't matter at that point because the transition was irreversible.
Especially during the run-up to the 1980 Referendum which completed the hollowing out of corporate Montreal and sent Anglophones stampeding for the exits.

The 80-82 recession also led to economic problems for both cities but Toronto had enough growth momentum to get through intact while Montreal didn't recover for more than a decade.

When the expansion returned in 1983 Toronto completely ruled Canada. The eighties are still, in my mind, Toronto's ultimate decade. Unemployment was around 5%, the Skydome opened, the Jays were good, and the whole "world-class" obsession began in earnest. (Hell, even "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" dropped down here to marvel over Oceans and Stilife) It's when the city, somewhat awkwardly and clumsily, began to cast itself as a potential global player.

That's also when the great rivalry between these 2 sister cities pretty much ended. Both have evolved into their respective newer roles: Montreal the charming, fun-loving artsy, eccentric, and Toronto the younger, ambitious corporate dynamo.

I think both cities are comfortable with their roles. I know Toronto is summarily dissed by everyone outside the 905 as being dull, soulless and full of itself, while everyone waxes rhapsodic about the charms of Montreal. Some older Montrealers--particularly the Anglophones--might recall the glory days with a certain wistfulness, and no doubt many Torontonians wish this city could loosen up a little and put more emphasis on style rather than money.

Although Toronto and Montreal continue to evolve with time, it's important to realize that the die for both cities was really cast between 1976-1980. Who knows what would've happened without the events of that historically brief period? Probably a lot of people on this board would be writing their urban musings for UrbanMontreal.

 

[Filip]

10-15 years ago when I moved to Toronto, it was definitely lacking a certain flair. The city seemed too steeped in functionality rather than enjoyment.

Today, it seems that Toronto is developing its cultural sector at an astounding rate. New museums, art galleries, renos, festivals, street parties.. All of this is adding to Toronto's urban fabric; a balance between the arts and the corporate world (which seem to coexist perfectly, one financing the other, etc).. It's no doubt in my mind today that Toronto is a bigger nucleus of cultural happenings than Montreal. The other still has an amazing nightlife which Toronto is slowly beginning to catch up to as well.

The city in which we live in is simply a tiger these days.. All very exciting to see.

 

[Basshats]

I credit immigration (Quebecer Trudeau's legacy) for waking up Toronto. Others in this form love to bash Trudeau ... I say a huge "merci" to him.

Save a big thank you for Pearson, too. He was PM when Canada changed to a colour-blind immigration policy.

 

[kettal]

Interesting perspective. As someone who grew up in Toronto and lived there full time until 1972 I can offer a few comments albeit from a student's and teenager's perspective.

Montreal was certainly the "fun" capital of Canada at the time and a weekend there was a real eye opener for any Torontonian, as was EXPO 67. Remember, this was a time that Torontonians would travel to Buffalo for a good time.

But Toronto never felt second rate by Canadian standards, or even globally. It was in the early 50s that the dollar volume of shares traded on the TSE first surpassed the dollar volume on the Montreal exchange. While separatism didn't help the situation of business in Mtl, it really only exacerbated a trend that was already showing.

Toronto had Canada's first subway. The Commerce tower was the tallest building in the Commonwealth. CNE was the largest annual fair. UofT was highly ranked and science/engineering graduates went on to do top work in the US and UK. Toronto was where all the immigrants and working abroad professionals came - the area around Yonge and Eglinton was loaded with Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and assorted others.

With the ROM, AGO Royal Alex, Okeefe Centre, etc there was a cultural/financial elite in Toronto that cared about the city. One was aware that the Montreal elite - largely English at the time, did not seem to put as much into public facilities in that city.

Canada in the 60s still had that aura of major player left over from the Second World War. I travelled around Europe as a student hitch-hiker in 1966. While it was a lot of fun, it was only in Switzerland that I felt there was something that materially matched Toronto.

By the 70s, living in London, coming back to Canada was definitely a step down in terms of urban living but Toronto still felt a step up from the Asian countries and even Australia.

By the 90s the modern Asian cities were a step up from Toronto although not from Europe.

Today, traveling from Asia to Europe is a step down in quality of life. Europe to anywhere in North America except NYC is anther step down.

In short, one never felt second rate about Toronto when Montreal was on top. Now, both seem somewhat second rate.

Today speaking with people in Asia and Europe, the two most interesting cities for them seem to be Montreal and Vancouver. This applies to many who have spent considerable periods of time in Canada/Toronto.

Not very cheery, I realize, but a personal perspective.

I'm very interested in your analysis here. Is there a correlation with the instantaneous cost-of-living in all these cities and their rankings on your list.

It seems pretty strong to me. Perhaps we can pin-point the moment Toronto became #1 with the moment real estate values surpassed those of Montreals.

 

[drone]

drone, you spent 38 years in two cities you don't like? Why?

lol, family and my job pays best here in Toronto