[jn_12]

Sorry that this is more about Niagara than Toronto. I'd be willing to start a new thread but I don't feel there's enough people that would be interested in that. If a mod wants to start a thread re:Niagara, I'm all for it.

Now, I'm going to preface all of this tourism talk by saying that I've worked in tourism policy for the province. So I have a pretty good grasp of the issues and what Ontario, Toronto, Niagara, etc needs to do to improve itself. I'm currently doing my masters degree in tourism policy, as well... so with that in mind...

First I think, would be adding at least one aquarium, if not two or three. I mean honestly, I can't believe how we can't come up with this. An aquarium would go wonderfully well with Ontario Place, and with more development at Ontario Place, it'd draw in a huge number of people and really act as a development anchor. Right now, Ontario Place is kind of in limbo, stuck between being a good cultural destination and being an amusement park. I think it'd be better to focus on making it a nice cultural centre instead of amusement park, in part due to it's location close to downtown.

Second is Humber Bay. I mean, this place could look almost exactly like Acapulco. It's getting development, but I think the entertainment aspects are quite untapped.

If you read the Sorbara Report, you'll see that Ontario Place will be reimagined within the next 10 years. The Ontario government sees this as its jewel. Does that mean it will include an aquarium? Who knows. But there will certainly be an attempt to return to the Ontario Place of old. Go read the Sorbara Report. It's not great but it tells you what the province will be doing in tourism for the next decade.

Well I'm not from Niagara, but I've been there many, many times.

I'm proposing riverfront condos in green space? Have you been to Niagara?! Unless you consider overgrown gardens green space, that entire area downriver from the falls is totally filled with houses, and for a good 4-5 kilometers until you hit golf course. Unfortunately, right after that golf course is the hydroelectric area and is pretty solidly undevelopable. But there's at least 4 km of land that could easily get at least a row of condos, if not two or even three.

I was born in St Catharines and raised in Welland. Even worked in Niagara Falls in the tourism industry as summer jobs. So I know it quite well. There are houses yes, but they're some of the oldest in the city and beyond them the vast majority of the waterfront from lake to lake is green space (whether natural or not) and it's going to stay that way. Waterfront condos are not the answer for Niagara. If you want to know why just look up the politics of Port Dalhousie (do you know where that is?) and you'll understand why condos and waterfront don't mix in the Niagara region. You're trying to establish Toronto norms in a place where there's no need.

Hah, when I meant "main shopping street coming from the core," I meant a place where people could actually shop. Lundy's Lane is pretty pathetic as a shopping street. Sure, Lundy's Lane could stay the main shopping street, but it'll need a major revamp.

Yes, Marineland certainly is dying a very slow and painful death. That's why it needs to be better. I've heard something about it getting some expansion, but right now it's no amusement park. It's a destination, but it just needs to be better. Perhaps it should be split in half, with part aquarium/zoo thing and part amusement park. Either way, it needs to be more of an amusement park. Not quite Wonderland in that sense, but getting closer to that idea.

I agree neither is great. I had the luxury of working on Lundy's Lane in high school. But the foundation for your grand vision is there. You also have to remember that tourism is currently seasonal in Niagara Falls and the citizens of Niagara Falls and the surrounding area aren't very well off. So you're essentially asking for an improved shopping area in a place that can't sustain it. As for Marineland, I'm indifferent. People are already staying in Niagara Falls for multiple nights in the summer, and I don't think an improved amusement park is going to increase anything.

I realize that. Great Wolf Lodge really is a great place, and I wouldn't object to another hotel like Great Wolf Lodge. I dunno, maybe a hotel built around an indoor slice of the Pacific. But another thing along the lines of Great Wolf Loge would be totally great for the city's tourism.

Casinos and a better shopping area built around the Falls would be great as well. The city's definitely getting much better at realizing their tourism potential, but nothing is going to make it a direct competitor to Vegas in a decade. That said, there's a lot more the government could do to help the city along.

Well it will never be a Vegas. It is what it is. Another casino wouldn't do a lot as the current two aren't nearly as successful as anything in Vegas. In fact, they can't even sell tickets for most of the acts (musicians, comedians) they bring in. My mom regularly gets free tickets for events at the casinos.

Yeah, Niagara is in it's own world. Does that actually sound healthy to you?
The city should be interacting much more with neighboring cities, especially St. Catherines and Hamilton. Both these cities have well established industries and businesses, and St. Catherines has a very convenient location in the middle of Niagara Region. So Niagara Falls can be a separate entity because of it's tourism, but also be a kind of bedroom community to St. Catherines and Hamilton. I'm sure that a lot of people would love to live in Niagara Falls in a condo on the river, and take the Go train into work in St. Catherines or Hamilton. So right now, Niagara Falls might not be connected to anywhere else in any way, but that doesn't mean it has to be like that forever, and certainly doesn't mean that it should be like that.

First of all, for someone who knows so much about Niagara, it's St. Catharines. A not E. Also, when I say "Niagara" I mean the region, not only the city. And actually, I'd argue it's insulation is incredibly healthy because it means the amount of sprawl decreases (mind you, the Greenbelt helps as well). Making a place a bedroom community isn't good planning. Isn't good planning about creating self-sustaining areas? Plus you seem to have missed another important point: people in Niagara cannot afford waterfront condos. You're essentially building retirement condos for Torontonians (which is already a huge trend as retirees from Toronto buy houses in Niagara because you can buy a better quality house in Niagara for half the price of one in the GTA) which doesn't help anyone.

Honestly, I don't think you understand what it's like to be from Niagara. It might be one of the few places I know of in southern ontario where if you're from Niagara and you go elsewhere for school or whatever and run into another person from Niagara, you automatically have a bond and an understanding of eachother. I've had this conversation with countless people and they all agree. It's really weird, but it's really cool at the same time. Being insular in the GTA would suck, but being insular in the Niagara Penn is very satisfying. It's great living in an area where Pizza Huts have to close down because mom and pop pizza shops put them out of business. It's nice that we don't have the overplanned communities and roads that are everywhere in the GTA. I can go on, but Niagara really is quaint. It's rough but quaint. Niagara's problems aren't linked to not being a part of the GTA, but that it's in a state of economic transition. Not even the GO train is going to change that because it's not "bred" in people in Niagara to commute to work. It's a much simpler life and I don't think anyone in Niagara would find having to take a train half an hour to work all that appealing. If they wanted that, they'd move to Burlington.

 

[adma]

Besides, when it comes to main-street/condo-potential urbanism in Niagara Falls, we shouldn't be thinking of Lundy's Lane, we should be thinking of the "downtown" zone up near Whirlpool Rapids...

 

[jn_12]

Good point Adma. Downtown Niagara Falls is on the upswing. I haven't been to downtown Niagara Falls in a long time, but from what I hear it's really starting to find its legs and I hope that it'll figure out a way to attract visitors and survive.

 

[Admiral Beez]

So is it fair to say that Kitchener or Hamilton are bigger cities than Sydney, Australia because the City of Sydney consists of only ~177,000 people?

It's fair to say whatever you want.

Is the thread GTA as world city or Toronto as world city? If it's GTA as world city, then that's fine, but then let's not call it Toronto, but instead refer to GTA as world city.

 

[knlaruw]

Or that the City of London, England has only 7,900 people?

I see how it makes sense to include the suburbs and the greater GTA as Toronto, because it all one continuous urban area. However, Toronto is clearly a city in itself, unlike Sydney or London *proper*, which are relatively small compared the extended area.

With that, it's unnecessary to bicker over whether Toronto means Toronto *proper* or the GTA as a whole. It's convenient to use the 5 million population figure and include the 'burbs to inflate the size of the city, but when it comes to this, we ignore it.

Just sayin'.

 

[afransen]

It's fair to say whatever you want.

Is the thread GTA as world city or Toronto as world city? If it's GTA as world city, then that's fine, but then let's not call it Toronto, but instead refer to GTA as world city.

I think you'll find most people from elsewhere refer to the GTA as 'Toronto', GVRD as 'Vancouver', Greater Sydney as Sydney, etc. If you want to refer specifically to the municipality, call it the City of Toronto, which is its proper name.

 

[Epi]

I think the biggest problem with trying to figure out if tourists really come to Toronto on this board is that... we're all FROM TORONTO.

Obviously all the really interesting 'touristy' things that one can do are elsewhere. That's because we live here, so all the touristy things in Toronto are boring! You know why? Because touristy things are just that... things you visit once and never go back again. I'd like to see how many actual New Yorkers consider the Empire State Building or the Statue of Liberty destinations to go on the weekend...

We have a ton of things going for us in this city. Tourism isn't limited to things like aquariums (even if they are nice to have). When was the last time you planned a trip anywhere just to see an aquarium?

For one thing, it's a pretty much well known thing to virtually anyone in Canada that Toronto has by far the best shopping in Canada (sorry Montreal and Vancouver, you know it's true). Having known vast numbers of people (mostly women though, I gather most people posting here are probably men) from all over the country, I can safely say that a LOT of people plan trips to Toronto solely for the shopping opportunities. While it's nice to shop in the USA, there's something to be said about going somewhere that is relatively cheap to stay (vs say NYC), doesn't require a passport or money changing, and feels like home.

Secondly, it's increasingly well known that Toronto is a food destination in it's own. When I say food destination, I mean virtually every Chinese person who really likes food would agree that the best Chinese food in North America can be found in Toronto or Vancouver, so go where it's closer. NYC is good, but it's not the same. Similarly there's a zillion Jews that bus in all over just to get kosher food in Toronto. In fact the Sobey's in Thornhill is a destination in it's own right. Add that onto the rest of our awesome restaurant scene which is gaining enormous traction all over even in international travel news, and you'll see a lot of people come just for that.

Thirdly, there's our really awesome world-class events such as the TIFF (2nd most important and largest in the world), the Gay Pride parade (people come from all over North America for this), and Caribana (which is big enough to get many US celebrities every year). There's also the Stratford festival which gets many top notch actors and even Hollywood celebrities acting in it.

Fourthly, if you REALLY want to talk about the so-called prime tourist attractions we have the world famous Niagara Falls (as legitimate as a side trip to Versailles if you go to Paris, a side trip to Oxford if you go to London, a side trip to Macau if you go to Hong Kong, etc.), a destination people plan their vacations around. I've talked to a lot of people around the world, especially from Europe who are planning North American vacations, and Niagara Falls is always on their list.

We have a world-class, instantly recognizable former tallest building in the world for over 30 years in the CN Tower. We have the frequently #1 most visited seasonal park in North America in Canada's Wonderland. We have a Starchitect-designed museum and art gallery with the ROM and the AGO. We have the Hockey Hall of Fame, important to those who like hockey around the world (yes hockey fans in Europe follow the NHL cause all their best players come here).


Now add in these so called 'prime reasons to visit Toronto' to the fact that we're a huge convention destination, a huge destination for people visiting relatives, and the fact that we're an awesome city just to hang out in for our neighbourhoods we're totally a prime tourist city. And you know what? The numbers prove it.

 

[Epi]

(2nd post but responding to thread topic)

If Toronto is to go the next step to being a 'global city' (whatever that means), what we really need is to enter the popular imagination of the world. The best way to do this is really to create enough culture within our city, that other people will always think of us. I'm talking about enough importance so that in disaster movies, we get blown up. I mean when love stories are set at meeting on top of the CN Tower. I mean when people visit weird places in Toronto to retrace their favorite books. Think of the endless movies, books, and so on that have been set in the acknowledged 'world cities' of NYC, Paris, London, Hong Kong and Tokyo. How much stuff has been set in Toronto?

Remember, population isn't everything. Hong Kong is only marginally richer, and marginally more populous than Toronto with even less history than our city. Although Hong Kong was lucky as the gateway to China for 50 years, it is no longer so. What Hong Kong really did different was create it's own myth, via it's own cultural industries which has solidified Hong Kong's status around the world. That and it's people aren't afraid to say they are number one. Toronto could use more of that.

 

[Dan416]

I really can't believe the endless bickering about what "Toronto" is or isn't. When someone says they have relatives in Brampton or Markham, they don't mean it as being a separate city from Toronto, it's just like saying they have relatives in Etobicoke or Scarborough; it's just a certain part of Toronto.

 

[pman]

true

(2nd post but responding to thread topic)

If Toronto is to go the next step to being a 'global city' (whatever that means), what we really need is to enter the popular imagination of the world. The best way to do this is really to create enough culture within our city, that other people will always think of us.

That's a great point Epi. I would extend it a bit and suggest that we also need to enter our own popular imagination with something more cohesive than an official culture that appears to begin and end by celebrating our differences and the separateness of our various immigrant groups.

 

[Glen]

If Toronto wants to become a better city, I loath to use the term 'Global City' as there is no good definition, it needs to become more prosperous. It needs to see economic growth outside the core. It needs to become attractive to young families. Only then will it be worthy of being admired from afar. On most counts this city is behind were it was twenty years ago.

 

[Jaguar4u]

TORONTO - World Class City

We are booming in the right direction. Great business and investment opportunities. We need a Mayor that will insist on way more funding from the Provincial and Federal Governments.

We need Green trains!!! Go Electric. They are planning to put Diesel trains from Union station to the Airport. Have they lost their minds. If they did that in Europe, our planet would have blown up by now

I am going to open a new Thread for "clean train student coalition". They need our support.