GenerationW said:
How could it possibly be any weirder than games in England? London sold over 83,000 tickets for two random NFL games in 2013. Toronto, unlike London, is a mature NFL market, yet London is getting three random games this year, while Toronto is getting its last for the foreseeable future.

And the valid comparison to a Bills in Toronto game would be a random Panthers/Blue Jackets game in Hamilton, with the implication that it would help gauge interest for a potential permanent NHL team. Bet that would sell out.
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Well, I think the Toronto series was weirder because the Bills series was an attempt to regionalize the Bills - to convince Toronto that this is their home team. And I don't think anyone here bought into that, as they played 7/8 home games somewhere else and had 'Buffalo' on their jerseys. There was also the insanely terrible mishandling of the series by Rogers. Whereas the London series is more of a 'hey check see the NFL' spectacle. They speculated on Prime Time Sports that the Bills series was likely done, but that they expected Toronto to host more games going forward in a way that was more similar to what they're doing in London.

But yeah - I won't argue, London has shown amazing support and here it was weak. I still completely maintain that a Toronto NFL franchise would absolutely be a success though.

Re the Panthers/Blue Jackets thing - I see your point, but nobody ever was told the Bills series was an attempt to gauge interest. It just felt like a money gauge and felt disingenuous - Rogers was going to charge absurd prices for tickets to see a smaller city's NFL team who sucks. And they were telling us it was 'our team'. I think it you held an NFL game in Toronto under some kind of understanding that it was a test for the market, it would sell out handily.

And hey, again, we obviously differ on opinions of how strong a fanbase would be here - but according to virtually every sports media outlet in Toronto - the opinion of some guys with a lot of money is that the NFL would work here, and they're going to try. That's a given. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes down.
 
JMSRead said:
It just felt like a money gauge and felt disingenuous - Rogers was going to charge absurd prices for tickets to see a smaller city's NFL team who sucks. And they were telling us it was 'our team'. I think it you held an NFL game in Toronto under some kind of understanding that it was a test for the market, it would sell out handily.
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That would be a false test though......it would be very easy to sell out if you told people "fill the joint you get a team"....all sorts of civic pride would kick in, there would be concerted efforts to sell tickets etc. The Bills series was a more organic/natural way to judge it....real games, in a real market over an extended period of time with no promises or outside motivation.

The money thing is interesting....people call it a gouge, or a rip off or overpriced. I think it was a calculated effort by Rogers to show one thing. The NFL has a minimum stadium size for a reason. They want game day revenue from their teams to be at a certain level....a level they think they need 60k+ stadiums to achieve. SkyDome/Rogers Centre is far from that minimum but is a fine stadium in other respects. In putting this series together, Rogers guaranteed the Bills more money from each game in Toronto than their massive stadium in Orchard Park can generate.....they wanted to show the NFL that they could generate excess money from a smaller stadium in the hope that they might get a stadium exception.....show them that there is more to revenue generation than # of seats.....if they could show a viable NFL financial model in a stadium that already exists that would have removed a very big expense from the equation.

JMSRead said:
And hey, again, we obviously differ on opinions of how strong a fanbase would be here - but according to virtually every sports media outlet in Toronto - the opinion of some guys with a lot of money is that the NFL would work here, and they're going to try. That's a given. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes down.
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I think the NFL's natural order of where they would want teams now (either re-locations or expansions) would be LA, London, Toronto (perhaps LA, LA, London, Toronto).

If Buffalo was available to be re-located and there was no viable ownership group that wanted to keep them in Buffalo I think Toronto would vault up that list to satisfy a bigger regional issue (upstate NY/Southern Ontario) but that does not seem to be the case.
 
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W. K. Lis said:
Its the public drinking that drives tailgate parties in the U.S.. Basically a no-no in Ontario. See link on the Tailgate party from Wikipedia.
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Yes, I am aware that there is no specific law against "tailgating" and I also know that the generally accepted tailgating experience involves public drinking....so I shortened it to tailgating is illegal....what I should have said was that the sort of tailgating that is commonly understood to be is illegal in Ontario.
 
GenerationW said:
How could it possibly be any weirder than games in England? London sold over 83,000 tickets for two random NFL games in 2013. Toronto, unlike London, is a mature NFL market, yet London is getting three random games this year, while Toronto is getting its last for the foreseeable future.

And the valid comparison to a Bills in Toronto game would be a random Panthers/Blue Jackets game in Hamilton, with the implication that it would help gauge interest for a potential permanent NHL team. Bet that would sell out.
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The comparison should be a Leafs/Panthers in Hamilton or a Canadians/Predators game in Quebec City as the Bills in Toronto series was about gauging interest yes but it used a team that was within the host city's 'market' so to speak. The trouble with the Bills in Toronto is that Toronto tends have an even distribution of fans for each NFL franchise, Torontonians do not view the Bills as 'their' team. In fact I have found this across all major sports leagues even the NHL despite the Leafs Collosus, you will find as many Yankee, Red Sox, Cardinals, and Braves fans in Toronto than Blue Jays fans, as many Habs, Bruins, Pens, Red wings and Panthers fans in Toronto than Leafs fans, as many Bulls, Lakers, Heat, Hawks, and Pacers fans as Raptors fans, and as many Giants, Packers, Patriots, Bears and Lions fans in Toronto than Bills fans. Maybe in the early to mid 90's when the Bills made it to the Superbowl 4 yrs in a row Toronto may have taken them as their team, but then they were doing pretty well in Buffalo at that time as well.

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The NFL in London games succeed in part because of the distance from the NFL. In Toronto we have the NFL in our backyard, in London most games are played at 6 pm local time at the earliest and will run into the early morning. If Chelsea and Manchster (just two names as I don't really know who the big EPL teams are right now) came to NY to play a regular season game, it would be just as big as the NFL in London for the very same reason.
 
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TOareaFan said:
I think the NFL's natural order of where they would want teams now (either re-locations or expansions) would be LA, London, Toronto (perhaps LA, LA, London, Toronto).

If Buffalo was available to be re-located and there was no viable ownership group that wanted to keep them in Buffalo I think Toronto would vault up that list to satisfy a bigger regional issue (upstate NY/Southern Ontario) but that does not seem to be the case.
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Regarding LA and London, I do think it's possible we'll see other teams relocate to those cities. The owner of the St Louis Rams just bought a large plot of land in LA, and it's been speculated he may move his team there if a new stadium isn't built in St. Louis. And there have been rumours of the Jaguars moving to London for a couple years. By the time 2020 rolls around, it may be an easier path for Buffalo to move here (of course it may not as well).

All that said, I think you're probably right here regarding LA and London. I certainly don't think Toronto is *definitely* going to get the Bills or any team. There are lots of obstacles, and there will be competition.

But it seems evident at this point that Tannenbaum, Ed Rogers, Leiweke, MLSE and apparently Bon Jovi are going to try. And, they certainly have the money to make a real attempt. Who knows if it will be successful, but it will be quite interesting.
 
From what i have heard, London wont be ready for an NFL team till 2019, which will be about the same time that there will be a push to put Toronto into the league
 
JMSRead said:
Whereas the London series is more of a 'hey check see the NFL' spectacle.......

Re the Panthers/Blue Jackets thing - I see your point, but nobody ever was told the Bills series was an attempt to gauge interest. It just felt like a money gauge and felt disingenuous - Rogers was going to charge absurd prices for tickets to see a smaller city's NFL team who sucks. And they were telling us it was 'our team'. I think it you held an NFL game in Toronto under some kind of understanding that it was a test for the market, it would sell out handily.

And hey, again, we obviously differ on opinions of how strong a fanbase would be here - but according to virtually every sports media outlet in Toronto - the opinion of some guys with a lot of money is that the NFL would work here, and they're going to try. That's a given. Will be interesting to see how it all shakes down.
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The games in London started in 2007. A spectacle might sell 80,000 seats for a game or two, but not eight.

Actually some in the media did tout the Bills series as an attempt to gauge interest, and the Ted Rogers-Ralph Wilson introductory press conference was dripping with that assumption. As Dave Naylor and others have reported, Rogers intended one annual game to become two, and then four, and then possibly a permanent move. It would be foolish to believe Rogers didn't expect some kind of long-term payoff from its substantial investment.

Someone will likely try to get an NFL team here if an opportunity arises (the Bills are probably the only realistic option), but Paul Godfrey has been trying non-stop for 30 years, and others tried before him. There are tons of hurdles to cross on both sides of the border, but to me the biggest hurdle is the NFL itself. They would be here by now if they really wanted to be here, but I believe the NFL has lost total interest in expanding to Canada.
 
I think there needs to be a clear differentiation between "showcasing" and "testing". The Diamondbacks and Dodgers just opened up their regular season with a series in Australia. Clearly that is a showcase. Same as when the MLB opened in Japan or the NHL did its European games. It was an attempt to grow interest in the game in new markets, with no serious thought given to expansion as a motivation.

However, there are definitely series that fall into the category of "testing". I firmly believe that the Jays vs Mets series this weekend in Montreal falls into that category, as did the Bills in Toronto series. Those are legitimate markets to expand/relocate into (or in the case of Montreal, re-relocate into), and those series can reasonably be seen as attempts to gauge interest.

I'm on the fence about whether NFL London was a showcase or a test though, to be honest. It's certainly in a grey area.
 
gweed123 said:
I think there needs to be a clear differentiation between "showcasing" and "testing". The Diamondbacks and Dodgers just opened up their regular season with a series in Australia. Clearly that is a showcase. Same as when the MLB opened in Japan or the NHL did its European games. It was an attempt to grow interest in the game in new markets, with no serious thought given to expansion as a motivation.

However, there are definitely series that fall into the category of "testing". I firmly believe that the Jays vs Mets series this weekend in Montreal falls into that category, as did the Bills in Toronto series. Those are legitimate markets to expand/relocate into (or in the case of Montreal, re-relocate into), and those series can reasonably be seen as attempts to gauge interest.

I'm on the fence about whether NFL London was a showcase or a test though, to be honest. It's certainly in a grey area.
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I think it started as a showcase and grew into test....I also think the concurrent development of the, now, omnipresent PVR/DVR devices and the boost that has given to the value of live sports broadcasting rights has not hurt London's NFL profile at all.....one more slot that people want to watch live rather than tape and skip commercials!
 
GenerationW said:
Started out as the former, but I think it's now definitely the latter.
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TOareaFan said:
I think it started as a showcase and grew into test....I also think the concurrent development of the, now, omnipresent PVR/DVR devices and the boost that has given to the value of live sports broadcasting rights has not hurt London's NFL profile at all.....one more slot that people want to watch live rather than tape and skip commercials!
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Very true. I think a good test for London would be to do multiple games a year (2 or 3) and see if the "novelty" factor wears off, or if it continues to draw well. The Bills series started out very well, but then by the end of it they practically had to give away tickets to fill the place.
 
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