[TOareaFan]

I suspect all this talk of moving the Argos to York or Markham really comes from a contempt for the team, whether it's misplaced anger from soccer fans or desire for the "big league" NFL. Moving them to York gets them neatly out of the way like subways get transit out of the way of drivers. The majority of fans might be from the suburbs, but that's no different from the Leafs or Jays. The majority of the residents of the GTA live in the suburbs too but they still come downtown for sports. Making a night out of it downtown is a big part of the experience. Moving to York would do the team no favours.

Certainly, in my case, my suggestion of York is not from any anger or dislike of the Argos....I may not be a football fan but I recognize the value of the Argos to, both, the sporting and cultural fabric of this city/region. We throw away far too much of what is Canadian in search of being this all important next big "American city".

I think what football offers its fans (and the reason it is the one sport that seems to have some success, even in America, with suburban stadiums) is a destination/by appointment sporting experience. With so few games and the ability to carve out a night/day of the week where the majority of them are played they can, and do, have success with people traveling out of the city core and from around regions to the match. As an outside, casual but interested, observer I think what the Argos have lacked is the ability to control their schedule and make that "date" with their fans. As the second tenant in Rogers Centre they have been a slave to MLB in setting their dates and have had to slot their games into nights/days when it was convenient for the Jays. I think moving into BMO Field would present them with a slightly smaller version of the same problem.

The biggest advantage I see at York (if it were even possible) is for the Argos to control their schedule, pick the night/day that their games appeal the most to their fans and schedule them at their whim. TSN seem to have made a great property out of "Friday night football".....I am sure they would appreciate the ability to start the season knowing that they could guarantee "X" number of those broadcasts are coming from Toronto.

Anyway, my suggestion of York has nothing to do with shunting the Argos out of sight or any level of contempt, it is a legitimate suggestion of a place where they may make a home "theirs" and (re) build the following they once had.....most people do not even know it was the case but I remember back in the days when the toughest ticket to get your hands on in this city were Argo tickets....not Leaf tickets. Being in a stadium on the subway and near highways that they control the scheduling of may be their best chance to recreate those days....or something close to it.

I'm not really a football fan (or soccer for that matter), but it's still fun to go to the occasional game. What the TV ratings show is that a lot of people watch the Argos whether they're in Toronto or not. A million viewers for regular season games is impressive no matter where they come from. The CFL gets better TV ratings than any sport other than hockey. And that's important with the amount of money TSN is now spending for the rights.

My point was you seemed to be saying those numbers indicated people in Toronto are still watching/paying attention to the Argos.....they may be but those numbers do not break out where the viewers are and, therefore, can't be used to back up that statement.....sorry if I misunderstood your original point.

 

[StatGeek]

Very well said TOareaFan, I am a York fan as well. I'd tell you straight up as a "misplaced angry soccer fan" I'd be willing to trade BMO for York. Especially when York U having a subway line right to their facility. BMO a b*tch to get to, that Exhibition Go train tunnel to get from Atlantic ave to BMO is an accident ready to happen. And any bad weather gets 10x worse near the lake than anywhere else.

And great point ToareaFan about the tailgate experience, of course the province has to tweak their open liquor laws but a more spacious area like York is way better than being crammed into downtown/Ex. I think hockey, basketball and especially baseball needs to be downtown because it's such a multiple games a week season. But CFL/NFL who play about every other week can definitely be more of a destination location and still be very successful.

Again as a tennis fan, never had a problem going to York for it (without even the subway line going to it), never felt I was a second class citizen in doing so. It's a very good tennis venue, worth the trip.

Also I will never understand this from football fans, as a football fan, don't you want to BUILD THE SPORT. Shacking up with some other team and sharing their stadium again just leaves the Argos as a secondary tenant. To partner with a university and build a football specific stadium to build the sport doesn't just help the Argos now but help the sport as a whole in the future.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

They can surely fit a 25/30,000 seat stadium in the outlined area in red right? The black area is the new subway station and the blue area is where the new athletics stadium is going

 

[GenerationW]

Also I will never understand this from football fans, as a football fan, don't you want to BUILD THE SPORT. Shacking up with some other team and sharing their stadium again just leaves the Argos as a secondary tenant.

By that logic the Raptors should leave the ACC and find their own place.

 

[Dan416]

I have never watched an Argos game, but I don't like the idea of them leaving downtown.

 

[Red October]

By that logic the Raptors should leave the ACC and find their own place.

Ha, and just like with the Skydome even though the Leafs are the biggest ticket the ACC was originally designed for just the Raptors. That's why it has such a small footprint for an NHL arena. The Leafs bought the Raptors and joined the ACC after it was already being dug.

Also SMH at the "just move em to a small city" post. That's what's wrong with Toronto football fans these days, they want the hyped up shiny thing, despite having the oldest continuously operating professional sports franchise in North America right under their nose... It's maddening.

 

[MisterF]

Certainly, in my case, my suggestion of York is not from any anger or dislike of the Argos....I may not be a football fan but I recognize the value of the Argos to, both, the sporting and cultural fabric of this city/region. We throw away far too much of what is Canadian in search of being this all important next big "American city".

I think what football offers its fans (and the reason it is the one sport that seems to have some success, even in America, with suburban stadiums) is a destination/by appointment sporting experience. With so few games and the ability to carve out a night/day of the week where the majority of them are played they can, and do, have success with people traveling out of the city core and from around regions to the match. As an outside, casual but interested, observer I think what the Argos have lacked is the ability to control their schedule and make that "date" with their fans. As the second tenant in Rogers Centre they have been a slave to MLB in setting their dates and have had to slot their games into nights/days when it was convenient for the Jays. I think moving into BMO Field would present them with a slightly smaller version of the same problem.

The biggest advantage I see at York (if it were even possible) is for the Argos to control their schedule, pick the night/day that their games appeal the most to their fans and schedule them at their whim. TSN seem to have made a great property out of "Friday night football".....I am sure they would appreciate the ability to start the season knowing that they could guarantee "X" number of those broadcasts are coming from Toronto.

Anyway, my suggestion of York has nothing to do with shunting the Argos out of sight or any level of contempt, it is a legitimate suggestion of a place where they may make a home "theirs" and (re) build the following they once had.....most people do not even know it was the case but I remember back in the days when the toughest ticket to get your hands on in this city were Argo tickets....not Leaf tickets. Being in a stadium on the subway and near highways that they control the scheduling of may be their best chance to recreate those days....or something close to it.




My point was you seemed to be saying those numbers indicated people in Toronto are still watching/paying attention to the Argos.....they may be but those numbers do not break out where the viewers are and, therefore, can't be used to back up that statement.....sorry if I misunderstood your original point.

So your argument is in favour of the Argos having their own stadium (or partnered with a university), not moving to York per se. A new stadium downtown would have the same benefits. Yes the Argos used to be a much bigger draw, but they were downtown at the time so the location isn't the issue.

As for TV viewership, the fact that one of the most watched games was an Argos-Ticats game suggests that more people in this region watch the Argos than you think. And while detailed stats don't appear to be available for each city, this article suggests that viewership is quite strong in southern Ontario. https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...ease-surprise-southern-ontario-183017606.html

 

[TOareaFan]

So your argument is in favour of the Argos having their own stadium (or partnered with a university), not moving to York per se. A new stadium downtown would have the same benefits. Yes the Argos used to be a much bigger draw, but they were downtown at the time so the location isn't the issue.

Not sure I would characterize my comments as an "argument" at all. Whether I attend or not, I think our city is better off with having multi-sport options and thriving franchises (ie. I am not a baseball fan but I am increasingly concerned that the largest city in MLB with only one team in that sport can't seem to get above 22nd in major league attenendance).

All I was saying was that by not controlling their schedule the Argos are forfeiting the major inherent advantage that their sport's limited schedule affords them....that "by appointment" "same day/time every other week" thing that no other sport can accomplish. So, yes, I think they would be much better off controlling their own facility (or, at least, being the prime tenant in one)....yes that could be accomplished with a downtown location......but the cost of building/developing a downtown stadium on/near the subway (which seemed to be of prime concern to the poster I originally responded to) would be prohibitive and the locations that could happen are very limited (yes Varsity was great...but that ship has sailed and there is not much point discussing it ....it ain't coming back). So, when you look around the city at sites on the subway where the Argos could be the sole or controlling tenant, York leaps out as the one place and I have no idea (haven't looked hard enough at it) if there would be a way to get that new track stadium up to 22/25k capacity.....they are getting it to 15k for the PanAms....is that the max or just a number they settled on for those games? If it were possible, what would the cost be?

As for TV viewership, the fact that one of the most watched games was an Argos-Ticats game suggests that more people in this region watch the Argos than you think. And while detailed stats don't appear to be available for each city, this article suggests that viewership is quite strong in southern Ontario. https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...ease-surprise-southern-ontario-183017606.html

I think if you flip back at the comments on this I was one who agreed with you that the Argos are not as ignored as people think.....I was just suggesting (and stand by it) that these TSN numbers can't be used to conclusively support the statement.

 

[Automation Gallery]

Like i've said before, Lamport is their 2nd choice, and doubt the Argos will ever leave downtown

 

[Translude15]

So your argument is in favour of the Argos having their own stadium (or partnered with a university), not moving to York per se. A new stadium downtown would have the same benefits. Yes the Argos used to be a much bigger draw, but they were downtown at the time so the location isn't the issue.

As for TV viewership, the fact that one of the most watched games was an Argos-Ticats game suggests that more people in this region watch the Argos than you think. And while detailed stats don't appear to be available for each city, this article suggests that viewership is quite strong in southern Ontario. https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/e...ease-surprise-southern-ontario-183017606.html

Super Bowl ratings (Average of 8 million viewers, 18 million unique viewers):

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/129...-canada-with-8-million-viewers-on-ctv-and-rds

NFC/AFC Championship games:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/t...t-nfl-championship-game-breaks-161849296.html

2013 Grey Cup averaged 4.5 million viewers, or 11 million unique viewers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...tched-sports-program-of-2013/article15596026/

The 2012 Grey Cup averaged 3.6 million viewers in the Toronto market.

I don't know the Super Bowl viewership for the Toronto market but given the total figures I'd assume it was higher than the Grey Cup.

I understand the sentimentality many Canadians have for the CFL, but ratings aside, the CFL is still bush league. The NFL still manages to outdraw the CFL without any Canadian presence. But then again, attendance issues aside, Argo viewership is still respectable. In the NFL vs. CFL debate, should the NFL come to Toronto, perhaps co-existence is a possibility rather than simply running the Argos into the ground.

 

[TOareaFan]

^re co-existance....i wonder if football fans would react positively or negatively if the Argos and some new/relocated NFL team were under common ownership and access to the "best" 25k season tickets for NFL also required the purchase of Argo season tickets?

 

[Translude15]

^re co-existance....i wonder if football fans would react positively or negatively if the Argos and some new/relocated NFL team were under common ownership and access to the "best" 25k season tickets for NFL also required the purchase of Argo season tickets?

I don't think forcing NFL ticket subscribers to also purchase CFL tickets would be ideal or even necessary. To be honest, I think the ratings indicate that football fans across the country appreciate BOTH brands of football. The NFL generally draws more casual fans than the CFL based on its high-profile appeal anyways, but there are many who follow both leagues. I know I do.

The CFL and NFL schedules overlap at the tail end and beginning of their respective seasons anyways, so that alone would allow both franchises to co-exist should it ever happen.

Regardless, as others have already said, the Argos need their own home field. 30k maximum for seating capacity and York University would be the place to do it. Lamport would be amazing but that's a pipe dream. Keep BMO for what it was originally intended: soccer.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't think forcing NFL ticket subscribers to also purchase CFL tickets would be ideal or even necessary. To be honest, I think the ratings indicate that football fans across the country appreciate BOTH brands of football. The NFL generally draws more casual fans than the CFL based on its high-profile appeal anyways, but there are many who follow both leagues. I know I do.

I think there is (legitimate) concern about the ability/willingness of football fans actually buying tickets to both if they were in the same market vying for ticket buyers.

 

[ChesterCopperpot]

So, when you look around the city at sites on the subway where the Argos could be the sole or controlling tenant, York leaps out as the one place and I have no idea (haven't looked hard enough at it) if there would be a way to get that new track stadium up to 22/25k capacity.....they are getting it to 15k for the PanAms....is that the max or just a number they settled on for those games? If it were possible, what would the cost be?

York will have a capacity of 12,500 for the games (only 3,000 seats in the stadium are actually permanent). I've no idea how they would intend to increase it to 25,000

 

[MisterF]

Not sure I would characterize my comments as an "argument" at all. Whether I attend or not, I think our city is better off with having multi-sport options and thriving franchises (ie. I am not a baseball fan but I am increasingly concerned that the largest city in MLB with only one team in that sport can't seem to get above 22nd in major league attenendance).

All I was saying was that by not controlling their schedule the Argos are forfeiting the major inherent advantage that their sport's limited schedule affords them....that "by appointment" "same day/time every other week" thing that no other sport can accomplish. So, yes, I think they would be much better off controlling their own facility (or, at least, being the prime tenant in one)....yes that could be accomplished with a downtown location......but the cost of building/developing a downtown stadium on/near the subway (which seemed to be of prime concern to the poster I originally responded to) would be prohibitive and the locations that could happen are very limited (yes Varsity was great...but that ship has sailed and there is not much point discussing it ....it ain't coming back). So, when you look around the city at sites on the subway where the Argos could be the sole or controlling tenant, York leaps out as the one place and I have no idea (haven't looked hard enough at it) if there would be a way to get that new track stadium up to 22/25k capacity.....they are getting it to 15k for the PanAms....is that the max or just a number they settled on for those games? If it were possible, what would the cost be?



I think if you flip back at the comments on this I was one who agreed with you that the Argos are not as ignored as people think.....I was just suggesting (and stand by it) that these TSN numbers can't be used to conclusively support the statement.

Yes a downtown stadium will generally be more expensive than a suburban one, but that's the same of any stadium or arena for any sport. It doesn't apply to the Argos more than any other team. In any case, with the BMO deal the Argos get a new home in a stadium that's basically the perfect size for them, for free. The city keeps ownership of the stadium, gets it expanded and upgraded for basically nothing, and would at least in theory keep MLSE from mistreating the Argos the way Rogers did. MLSE gets another tenant for their stadium and a lot more people in the seats. It's win-win-win.

Unless the Argos get a big spending owner who's willing to spend hundreds of millions on a new stadium, they could never afford to build what they're getting at BMO. A university partnership is possible, sure, but if you go to York you lose the benefits of being downtown. It's doubtful that a York stadium would have things like a roof over the seats for example. The Argos probably should have partnered with the PanAm games to get public money that way, and maybe someday another opportunity will present itself, but for now the BMO deal really is the best thing available to them.

As for your last point, the TSN ratings do show that the Argos have more fans than people think. You don't get that many viewers without having a lot of fans. It's safe to say that a large percentage of the viewers of a regular season Toronto-Hamilton game would be from this region.

Super Bowl ratings (Average of 8 million viewers, 18 million unique viewers):

http://www.newswire.ca/en/story/129...-canada-with-8-million-viewers-on-ctv-and-rds

NFC/AFC Championship games:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/t...t-nfl-championship-game-breaks-161849296.html

2013 Grey Cup averaged 4.5 million viewers, or 11 million unique viewers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...tched-sports-program-of-2013/article15596026/

The 2012 Grey Cup averaged 3.6 million viewers in the Toronto market.

I don't know the Super Bowl viewership for the Toronto market but given the total figures I'd assume it was higher than the Grey Cup.

I understand the sentimentality many Canadians have for the CFL, but ratings aside, the CFL is still bush league. The NFL still manages to outdraw the CFL without any Canadian presence. But then again, attendance issues aside, Argo viewership is still respectable. In the NFL vs. CFL debate, should the NFL come to Toronto, perhaps co-existence is a possibility rather than simply running the Argos into the ground.

The Super Bowl is a spectacle that everyone watches whether they're football fans or not. It's no more indicative of the popularity of the NFL than the Olympics are of the popularity of track & field. To get an idea how many real fans there are of each league in this country, you need to look at regular season ratings. And for those the CFL is consistently higher than the NFL. Granted, that's probably not the case in Toronto. But if the CFL is "bush league" based on the TV viewership, than so is every sport except hockey. Maybe you shouldn't pay so much attention to what's cool and watch sports on their own merits.

In any case, coexistence with the NFL will never happen because, and I know I'm repeating myself, the NFL has no interest in Toronto for a whole variety of reasons.