[Marko]

2008 is a useful smokescreen for a process that was already happening over the previous four decades, at least...

I can attest to this also. Chicago is a large scale example of a midwest city that has a great core and some great suburbs, but a rather sizable belt of decay in between.

My first time to Chicago was in 1993 and having some free time one afternoon, I wanted to go out to the old Chicago Stadium where the Bulls and Blackhawks played. When I told the cabbie where I wanted to go he replied "But there's no game" and I said I knew. He asked again "Are you sure?" and I said yes. He warned me not to walk around the area and said he would only take me if I paid him to wait until I was either done, or inside taking a tour. I though he was trying to scare me into a bigger fare, but I learned later what he meant - and the place is not even far from the core.

I rented cars during later trips and drive around some, skirted some of the projects, passing through large areas of what I can only describe as rot. In 2001 I dated a woman from Chicago and went probably 10 times in the span of 4 months and really got to know the city, especially the NW suburbs and downtown. It's an amazing place and really a lot like Toronto in some ways, but then both better and worse in others.

But back to adma's comment - 2008 did make things worse in a lot of places - but it started long before. Just like Detroit or Cleveland or Buffalo but on a larger scale. The attention paid to the downtown and the waterfront resulted in some great things and rightfully ensured the face and visitor focused parts of Chicago remained healthy, but did nothing to improve the rot. We don't have as much to brag about in the high profile areas of Toronto, but have instead done more to ensure the entire city is more adequately taken care of. it's really an example of what makes Canada different from the US - very much like our health care system. Our sensibilities don't allow us to accept the extremes as normal and will instead spread our resources around to ensure everyone (or every area) has at least some measure of comfort/dignity (insert feel good word here). We compromise. It results in their best almost always being better than our best, but we have far less bad and don't come anywhere near their worst either.

 

[kkgg7]

I think a lot of you people have this idea in your heads that everything is better in America and you overlook what's good about Toronto.

Chicago will never have the lively street vibe we have and our downtown streets only get more crowded, with every new tower that goes up. The only cities in North America that are livelier than Toronto are New York and possibly Montreal.

When you compare Bloor Street to the Miracle Mile, you can't leave out Yorkville, which is also about upscale shopping. And let's face it, Yorkville is growing and expanding very quickly, as will Bloor, once 1 Bloor Street opens. It's not just what is, but also how the city is developing and NO city is growing faster than Toronto. The future is here.

I actually prefer Toronto's waterfront and think it's a lot more interesting to explore. It's way more diverse and contains real neighbourhoods where people live, stores, restaurants, schools and amenities, right on the water. It's more like a European waterfront, than the North American type.

You are displaying too much home bias here. To be honest, Toronto's waterfront with all the tacky condos is nothing European. You don't see those along the Thames or Seine. It looks more like a typical second tier Asian city to be honest. And i don't consider it "interesting". We may have many real neighbourhoods where people live, but the waterfront is a special and unique location. It shouldn't be used just as another typical neighbourhood where people eat and live, otherwise, why not building 100 condos on the Toronto islands and make it a neighbourhood as well?

Central waterfront belongs to the entire city, not just waterfront dwellers. It is SUPPOSED to be public, beautiful and charming enough to attract both locals and visitors to go and see. In that respect, Chicago did a much great job than we, and denying that is nothing but silly. From a financial perspective, millions of people visit Chicago's spectacular waterfront (spending money there) because of its beauty. On the other hand, we almost never take my friends to the waterfront, because, what's the point of seeing another condo city? I would be embarassed.

regarding growing fast, maybe so in developing countries. But I can name a dozen cities in China, Brazil etc which are growing 5 times faster than Toronto. Compared with Shanghai or Sao Paolo, Toronto is a median sized city growing only modestly. The worlds doesn't just consists of North America and West Europe. "NO city grows faster", really? What about Shanghai adding 6 new subway lines in the past 3-4 years, each year equally the entire TTC system? What about the Shanghai International Financial Center, 492m tall, twice the size of Trump Toronto, taking shorter time to construct? Let's not let the overzealousness blind ourselves into believing something which is far from the truth.

 

[Roy G Biv]

I actually prefer Toronto's waterfront and think it's a lot more interesting to explore. It's way more diverse and contains real neighbourhoods where people live, stores, restaurants, schools and amenities, right on the water. It's more like a European waterfront, than the North American type.

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but saying that Toronto's waterfront is anywhere close to Chicago's waterfront is blatant homerism.

 

[Thanos]

What about Shanghai adding 6 new subway lines in the past 3-4 years, each year equally the entire TTC system? What about the Shanghai International Financial Center, 492m tall, twice the size of Trump Toronto, taking shorter time to construct? Let's not let the overzealousness blind ourselves into believing something which is far from the truth.

Do you wanna get paid what they get paid in China to build those subways and buildings? By all means go ahead.
My ex-girlfriends cousin moved to Calgary with her husband because her husband went from making 100$ a week working on buildings 200m+ in the air with little to no security to making 7X that.
How about someone decided that your job was worth no more then 5$ an hour.

 

[Jonny5]

You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but saying that Toronto's waterfront is anywhere close to Chicago's waterfront is blatant homerism.

I agree with Torontovibe. It is not Homerism, it is a rejection of the validity of the comparison. Architecture and design standards were unfortunately poor, but I still belive the choice to develop is a superior use of that space than a Toronto version of Grant Park. We don't need that and I'm not embarassed to not have it. I refuse to believe there is a textbook development guide to a city that we have to follow by neighbourhood and I also believe that working on what we already have (at least after Ford is gone) can make Queen's Quay as popular a destination

 

[Thanos]

We do have our Grant Park, the islands. Though some money needs to be invested to improve certain areas and build a pedestrian bridge.

 

[Red October]

We do have our Grant Park, the islands. Though some money needs to be invested to improve certain areas and build a pedestrian bridge.

A pedestrian bridge from the mainland to the Islands? Wouldn't that kill the ferry?

 

[kkgg7]

Do you wanna get paid what they get paid in China to build those subways and buildings? By all means go ahead.
My ex-girlfriends cousin moved to Calgary with her husband because her husband went from making 100$ a week working on buildings 200m+ in the air with little to no security to making 7X that.
How about someone decided that your job was worth no more then 5$ an hour.

I am talking about Toronto not being the fastest growing city in the world. Only stating the facts. There is no reason to judge other countries' wage as if Canada is all superior, right?
FYI: $5 is RMB35/hour, and college graduate start salary is about RMB 2000-3000 in Shanghai. So there is no way those construction worker can make $5 an hour.

shanghai grows fast because the country is committed (not so much political bittering and change of plans over and over again). Workers work really hard. They don't work 9-5 with 2 hours "coffee breaks" in between. They work 12 or 14 hours a day. Construction goes on on weekends and holidays, often time at night as well. And before you start criticizing their poor work conditions, those workers are willing to work that hard because the more they work, the more they get paid and the more cash they are able to send back to their family in the countryside. Are you really gonna mock at that? Stop being judgmental. Here in Canada, bus drivers make $60K a year with all the benefits and they still go on strikes demanding more. That's the difference between fast and slow. Too much entitlement.

This weekend, the subway line between Bloor and Eglinton will again not operate for track maintenance. In Shanghai no such thing can ever happen because maintenance work happens after subway service shutsdown at night and there is no disruption to transit whatsoever. It is this "get things done" mentality that differentiate fast and slow growth. You think it is only China? NO, Japan, S. Korea all experience such stages.

It is a bit off-topic though. What I am saying is Toronto is by no means the fast growing city. If you look more closely at infrastructure development around the globe, Toronto is pretty slow. No subway line gets constructed during the past 20 years, well, even Los Angeles does better than that.

 

[kkgg7]

A pedestrian bridge from the mainland to the Islands? Wouldn't that kill the ferry?

wouldn't that be great? Why should anyone pay $6.5 for that 5 minutes ferry ride anyway.

 

[kkgg7]

I agree with Torontovibe. It is not Homerism, it is a rejection of the validity of the comparison. Architecture and design standards were unfortunately poor, but I still belive the choice to develop is a superior use of that space than a Toronto version of Grant Park. We don't need that and I'm not embarassed to not have it. I refuse to believe there is a textbook development guide to a city that we have to follow by neighbourhood and I also believe that working on what we already have (at least after Ford is gone) can make Queen's Quay as popular a destination

It would be more convincing if the position reverses (Toronto has Chicago's waterfront and Chicago has ours) and you would argue Chicago's is better and our magnificent waterfront is inferior. Would you?

 

[TrickyRicky]

A general comment on this city comparison is that while we are speaking about buildings and aesthetics and subways and other physical manifestations, the human experience has very little to do with these externalities. The difference between being a tourist and living in a place is that when you are a tourist your focus is the "now" as dictated by the senses around you. When you live somewhere your focus is your position, that is where you stand and how you can get from a to b in your life.

A place can be considered better in terms of your senses; however, what really matters to people is their position and how to get from a to b in their lives. The evidence is not in what we think is better or not. The evidence is in what we do.

We may say that Toronto is ugly or inferior or such but the evidence is that it compares quite favourably with other cities at answering the primary questions of life such as how to get from a to b. That is something that is important. That is something worth fighting for. Should we worship the symbols of human progress that manifest themselves in the physical structures and spaces of our cities? Perhaps. But they should never be as important as the human progress itself.

 

[Jonny5]

It would be more convincing if the position reverses (Toronto has Chicago's waterfront and Chicago has ours) and you would argue Chicago's is better and our magnificent waterfront is inferior. Would you?

Possibly. Or perhaps they would both be bad. But I still wouldn't believe waterfront design could be pulled from a book and applied out of context everywhere.

Queen's Quay does not become wrong simply because it is not built like Chicago's Waterfront.

 

[Tewder]

It seemed like Chicago had a huge head start on Toronto in terms of development and history, even though the two cities were started around the same time. Chicago just grew a lot faster it seemed, and that's a reason why they have so much beautiful, tall, dense old architecture and a great downtown compared to Toronto, as well as a much more interesting history.. (Show me Toronto's Al Capone and John Dillinger if you disagree)

You have to keep in mind that Toronto was a minor backwater of the British Empire for much of its history, and a pretty unimportant place, relatively speaking, for a long time thereafter. Contrast this with Chicago which has been a more important and more 'established' city for a lot longer, which likely explains why there are more older tall and/or grand buildings...

You also have to consider the difference in the evolution/histories of the two cities. For a long time now Chicago has had a bold, confident and 'American' sense of its own grandiosity, the World's Fair and the Great Fire used as opportunities to assert this hubris, while Toronto on the other hand has been a timid, conservative and parochial place for much of its history. Toronto has seen some enormous changes over the last thirty to forty years but it is highly unlikely that these changes will ever result in a 'Chicago' style showpiece of a grand city. There is only one Chicago after all. None of which is to say that Toronto isn't a great city for its own reasons. It is. We just need to demonstrate a little more integrity and confidence in how we assert or articulate what these reasons are. Maybe the increasingly likely rejection of Ford's (lack of) vision for the Waterfront is a sign of this very thing.

 

[Red October]

wouldn't that be great? Why should anyone pay $6.5 for that 5 minutes ferry ride anyway.

Why do people pay to ride the cable car in San Francisco? Why do people pay to ride in a double-decker bus in London? Why do people pay to ride gondolas in Venice? The ferries are part of the heritage of Toronto, and are a huge part of its character and what makes it unique, just like the red rocket streetcars.

I would easily pay money to take the ferry over walking across some half assed pedestrian bridge (it's Toronto, so you know it won't be a beautiful Calatrava bridge or anything), because it's just part of the city and part of the experience. To me it wouldn't be Toronto without the island ferries (and streetcars too actually).

 

[Red October]

I am talking about Toronto not being the fastest growing city in the world. Only stating the facts. There is no reason to judge other countries' wage as if Canada is all superior, right?
FYI: $5 is RMB35/hour, and college graduate start salary is about RMB 2000-3000 in Shanghai. So there is no way those construction worker can make $5 an hour.

shanghai grows fast because the country is committed (not so much political bittering and change of plans over and over again). Workers work really hard. They don't work 9-5 with 2 hours "coffee breaks" in between. They work 12 or 14 hours a day. Construction goes on on weekends and holidays, often time at night as well. And before you start criticizing their poor work conditions, those workers are willing to work that hard because the more they work, the more they get paid and the more cash they are able to send back to their family in the countryside. Are you really gonna mock at that? Stop being judgmental. Here in Canada, bus drivers make $60K a year with all the benefits and they still go on strikes demanding more. That's the difference between fast and slow. Too much entitlement.

This weekend, the subway line between Bloor and Eglinton will again not operate for track maintenance. In Shanghai no such thing can ever happen because maintenance work happens after subway service shutsdown at night and there is no disruption to transit whatsoever. It is this "get things done" mentality that differentiate fast and slow growth. You think it is only China? NO, Japan, S. Korea all experience such stages.

China is a communist dictatorship. If we got rid of unions, made the government completely in charge of us and gave us little to no rights, we'd get stuff done quickly too.