TheTigerMaster
Superstar
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denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
This is 100% true. Toronto gets a lot of hate. Chicago is now but because of who's president. I remember when no one was talking about Chicago violence, it was all about Detroit and this was in 2005.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Source?
I'd be interested to know if there's any studies on GDP of metro areas. Do you have a source for this?
I'd be interested to know if there's any studies on GDP of metro areas. Do you have a source for this?
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
The 'we pay more in taxes' thing is so Alberta sounding. Yeah, rich areas with lots of people and businesses pay more taxes. Get over it, or move to PEI.
RC8
Senior Member
Ontario has the lowest spending per capita of any province, and it wouldn't surprise me if Toronto has one of the lowest spendings per capita of any municipality in most areas.
With our highways falling apart and our transit and bicycle infrastructure needing urgent expansion, with our hospitals overcrowded and our decrepit public realm seriously affecting our tourist industry, when will it be enough?
Ford, for instance, would have never happened if we had a budget like the one a city as productive as ours deserves.
With our highways falling apart and our transit and bicycle infrastructure needing urgent expansion, with our hospitals overcrowded and our decrepit public realm seriously affecting our tourist industry, when will it be enough?
Ford, for instance, would have never happened if we had a budget like the one a city as productive as ours deserves.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
I think your line of reasoning, and your conclusion, are misguided. I'm not sure whether you mean that the federal government's spending, or the provincial government's spending, or the municipality's spending, is lower per capita than other places, but I'm sure all three are true. That's because the denominator in Toronto is so much larger -- we have tons more people. Of course the spending per capita on what-have-you is going to be lower than Nunavut or Yellowknife. It's true, but it doesn't 'prove' that Toronto is underfunded in any way.
Second, you then throw out a bunch of things that bother you personally that you'd like someone to spend more money on. Again, sure, but who? The feds aren't going to build bike lanes, it's not their responsibility. The province is in charge of hospitals and are building expansions in just about every Toronto hospital I can think of. (Also, IMHO, we don't have a decrepit public realm nor is it affecting the tourist industry, but that's a separate argument.)
Finally, Ford came in to specifically lower the budget! He was elected on a platform of lower taxes, not better bike lanes, or roads, or for that matter hospitals or greener parks. To say he wouldn't have been elected if we had higher taxes and more spending is to specifically misrepresent his appeal and his supporters.
He may be many things, but a tax & spend (even spend on things the rest of us think are necessary) guy he's not. And that's what got him elected, not crappy roads.
RC8
Senior Member
I don't think you understand my complaint. We shouldn't need to raise any taxes in order to get a lot more things than we do. I've lived in other cities around the world where municipalities get a fair share of the revenue they produce - not all - but a fair share.
In Canada only 8 cents of every tax dollar stay at the municipal level, and municipalities are expected to pay for policing, fire services, social services, etc. While many municipalities then get help from the province and the federal government to meet their needs, Toronto rarely gets any.
As TheTigerMaster points out, what we give and what we get back is completely unjustifiable - given that some of the most serious social issues in Canada can be found in our cities.
If Toronto got a fair share of the revenue it produces, you would see enormous improvements in every department, and people wouldn't go around with the idea that they are not getting their money's worth with the taxes they pay. That is the sentiment that got Ford elected.
It's not just a matter of economies of scale, it's a matter of efficiency. It's scandalous.
The hospital expansions are mostly research oriented, they won't fix the overcrowding.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
I have alist of metro areas by gdp, but its part of the notes for school and its hardcopy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP
This is Wikipedia obviously. But it includes the brookings institution, mckinsey, etc. Price waterhouse coopers
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Other then the violence how is that any different from Toronto? And even then, do you take tourists to Markham and Lawrence or Jane and Sheppard? Or six points? Many Torontonians don't care about the ROM.
James
Senior Member
Hehe, I couldn't help but put this article in here...
It's not a technical paper, merely a Chicago Tribune writer's editorial opinion. Most of it is pretty tongue-in-cheek but he does highlight some good points.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-ocanada-20130204,0,2792849.story
Canada cool
February 4, 2013
The Chicago Bears were watching instead of playing in Sunday's Super Bowl, but that could change next year now that the team has hired a coach from a rising star among nations: Canada.
Yes, Canada. Boring, eager-to-please Canada is taking Chicago by storm — in a nice way, of course.
It isn't just the arrival of Marc Trestman from the Montreal Alouettes as head coach of the Bears that heralds Canada's ascension to the ranks of Chicago cool.
Consider poutine. This homely dish, a tradition in Quebec, has become a popular menu item at some of Chicago's trendiest eateries. Take a mess of french fries, sprinkle on cheese curds then ladle brown gravy all over it. Embellishments range from foie gras to kimchi. Reactions range from "Yuck" to "Yum."
Poutine commands attention, like so many imports from the land of moose and maples.
Often ignored and taken for granted, Canada is on a roll. From the U.S. point of view, the tail is wagging the dog in North America, and that's not so bad. The economic activity helps both countries.
The key to Canada's success has been avoiding some of the worst mistakes made by its neighbor to the south.
Americans failed to regulate their banks. Canada's banks are stable.
Americans overinflated their real estate market. Canada's housing market never went pop.
Americans can't get their elected officials to straighten out health care and entitlement IOUs. Canada's got it better covered, having kept its debt and spending at more sustainable levels than the U.S.
Petrochemicals have helped. Canada is experiencing a gold-rush-style energy boom. The oil sands of Alberta contain enough petroleum to rate serious comparisons with Saudi Arabia. Improved drilling technology has made it practical to tap that vast resource. Money is pouring in, despite lower oil prices.
On a per capita basis, Canada is among the world's most prosperous countries. The Canadian dollar, nicknamed the loonie for the aquatic bird pictured on it, trades at an equal value to the U.S. dollar. Used to be, loonies traded at a substantial discount, but that was before Americans racked up a $16-trillion-plus national debt.
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper (we know many Americans have never heard of him) has pursued an ambitious trade agenda. He has sought to improve relations with China, enhancing economic ties. He also is expected to ink a free-trade agreement with the European Union this year. That will put pressure on the U.S. to follow suit, as well it should, for the substantial benefits that flow from tearing down commercial barriers and harmonizing regulations.
A lingering frustration is the Obama administration's opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline, an important cross-border infrastructure project needed to move oil from Canada to U.S. refineries and beyond.
One sticking point recently gave way when Nebraska lifted its objections to the pipeline's traverse of the state.
Now it's up to the U.S. State Department to stop pandering to environmental lobbyists and give the go-ahead. Can't happen soon enough.
While Canada waits, at least its citizens can take solace in the National Hockey League's return to the ice after a frustrating labor dispute.
Chicagoans who cheer for the resurgent Blackhawks should keep in mind that half the team hails from Canada, as does "Coach Q," the Ontario-born Joel Quenneville.
Land of the north, Chicago is calling to you. Calling your sesame bagels, smoked meat and Tim Hortons double-doubles. Calling your low rates of gun crime, and universal health care. Calling your oil, especially your oil. We hope some of that Canadian good fortune rubs off on our city.
~~~
It's not a technical paper, merely a Chicago Tribune writer's editorial opinion. Most of it is pretty tongue-in-cheek but he does highlight some good points.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/editorials/ct-edit-ocanada-20130204,0,2792849.story
Canada cool
February 4, 2013
The Chicago Bears were watching instead of playing in Sunday's Super Bowl, but that could change next year now that the team has hired a coach from a rising star among nations: Canada.
Yes, Canada. Boring, eager-to-please Canada is taking Chicago by storm — in a nice way, of course.
It isn't just the arrival of Marc Trestman from the Montreal Alouettes as head coach of the Bears that heralds Canada's ascension to the ranks of Chicago cool.
Consider poutine. This homely dish, a tradition in Quebec, has become a popular menu item at some of Chicago's trendiest eateries. Take a mess of french fries, sprinkle on cheese curds then ladle brown gravy all over it. Embellishments range from foie gras to kimchi. Reactions range from "Yuck" to "Yum."
Poutine commands attention, like so many imports from the land of moose and maples.
Often ignored and taken for granted, Canada is on a roll. From the U.S. point of view, the tail is wagging the dog in North America, and that's not so bad. The economic activity helps both countries.
The key to Canada's success has been avoiding some of the worst mistakes made by its neighbor to the south.
Americans failed to regulate their banks. Canada's banks are stable.
Americans overinflated their real estate market. Canada's housing market never went pop.
Americans can't get their elected officials to straighten out health care and entitlement IOUs. Canada's got it better covered, having kept its debt and spending at more sustainable levels than the U.S.
Petrochemicals have helped. Canada is experiencing a gold-rush-style energy boom. The oil sands of Alberta contain enough petroleum to rate serious comparisons with Saudi Arabia. Improved drilling technology has made it practical to tap that vast resource. Money is pouring in, despite lower oil prices.
On a per capita basis, Canada is among the world's most prosperous countries. The Canadian dollar, nicknamed the loonie for the aquatic bird pictured on it, trades at an equal value to the U.S. dollar. Used to be, loonies traded at a substantial discount, but that was before Americans racked up a $16-trillion-plus national debt.
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper (we know many Americans have never heard of him) has pursued an ambitious trade agenda. He has sought to improve relations with China, enhancing economic ties. He also is expected to ink a free-trade agreement with the European Union this year. That will put pressure on the U.S. to follow suit, as well it should, for the substantial benefits that flow from tearing down commercial barriers and harmonizing regulations.
A lingering frustration is the Obama administration's opposition to the Keystone XL pipeline, an important cross-border infrastructure project needed to move oil from Canada to U.S. refineries and beyond.
One sticking point recently gave way when Nebraska lifted its objections to the pipeline's traverse of the state.
Now it's up to the U.S. State Department to stop pandering to environmental lobbyists and give the go-ahead. Can't happen soon enough.
While Canada waits, at least its citizens can take solace in the National Hockey League's return to the ice after a frustrating labor dispute.
Chicagoans who cheer for the resurgent Blackhawks should keep in mind that half the team hails from Canada, as does "Coach Q," the Ontario-born Joel Quenneville.
Land of the north, Chicago is calling to you. Calling your sesame bagels, smoked meat and Tim Hortons double-doubles. Calling your low rates of gun crime, and universal health care. Calling your oil, especially your oil. We hope some of that Canadian good fortune rubs off on our city.
~~~
Johnny Au
Senior Member
If anyone wants to know the demonym of Chicago, it is "Chicagoan." I visited the Windy City in 1999, when they had those fibreglass cows. A year later, fibreglass moose appeared throughout Toronto, trying to emulate Chicago.
The Toronto Star also reiterated the Chicago Tribune's editorial: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/02/06/top_10_reasons_chicago_tribune_loves_canada.html
The Toronto Star also reiterated the Chicago Tribune's editorial: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/02/06/top_10_reasons_chicago_tribune_loves_canada.html
nfitz
Superstar
Point me to a Toronto residential neighbourhood where lots of houses and stores are disappearing, and there's just acre after acre of grass appearing in it's place. You see this in a lot of US cities, like Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago, etc. I'm yet to observed it in a Canadian city. I'm particularly surprised to see it in Chicago, near their mass transit stations. I'd assume that real estate values must be very low in parts of the city.
Not sure where you take tourists in Toronto has to do with livable cities ...
Tewder
Senior Member
Do you have any understanding of American history at all?
Let's not pat ourselves on the back too much. These centuries-old problems simply weren't ingrained here. I mean, the occasional Orange Man might have bad-mouthed an Irishman now and then or something, but you simply cannot compare the two contexts... and even though we ought to have known better poverty and crime are becoming extremely ethnically segregated in our city and region.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
Chicago was not that dangerous in 1950. The violence is 30 years old, really since the crack epidemic. It destroyed to many working class neighborhoods. Chicago also lost manufacturing, which hit south Chicago and Gary hard. Plants closing here did not have the same impact.